New-to me-WIN 9mm Luger Headstamp


#1

Recently I bought a box of Winchester 9x19mm in the new box with the gold “W”.

When I went to enter it into may Database and Vol 4 of my 9mmP headstamp guide, I realized it was a new headstamp I had not seen before (below on right). The old headstamp is illustrated on the left below. Note the old style had lower case “mm” and the new case had upper case “MM”. The upper case “MM” have previously shown up on NT +P headstamps (box code 021VA20-2Jan2004);on NT headstamps with no box code (probably acquired about 2009. The end tab print data is below. Perhaps someone can ID the print date.)

and on NT +P+ (box code 81RL91-19Oct2000)
All three are from Ranger boxes.

Does anyone know when the headstamp on the right was introduced?

I understand that the original WIN headstamp was introduced around 1988. Can anyone confirm this date or offer another date?

Cheers,
Lew


#2

The first I noticed the “MM” stamp was on their new “Train & Defend” rounds.


#3

Lew,

I do not recall seen the upper case MM version of those two headstamps before. Suspect it is probably new to this year.

Regarding the WIN headstamp on 9 mm Luger rounds, I have no factory records for its first use, but I acquired by first round with that headstamp in April 1984. I got both a Winchester factory load, Silvertip HP, and a Glaser safety slug loading on that brass, in April of that year, in fact. I would say the earliest it could be is from 1983. I was still at the SFGE then and had the habit of opening a box from every single new shipment of any auto pistol calibers. In 9 mm I would buy full boxes, as I could shot them up in My Browning Pistol, keep just a few for trade, one for the collection and one as a box specimen. Unfortunately, I did not mark the box with any notation that is held the first “WIN” headstamp I had seen on 9 mm. I have two boxes from that period for the Silvertip rounds, identical in all things except for a “patent advice” statement at the bottom of the back label, differing slight in wording from each other. One is Lot NUmber 88VC1 (with “50” on a second line and the other is Lot Number 32WE42 (with “55 50” on a second line). I cannot interpret these lot numbers as to date of manufacture. One should be from 1983 or 1984.

Sorry I can’t be of more help.


#4

Leon - What is “Defend and Train” as far as loading goes? A new one on me!


#5

I first encountered them in Oct 2013. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15037


#6

Winchester’s “Train & Defend” is new for this year. The box Lew posted above is their “Defend” portion (147 PDX1 JHP) and then there’s the “Train” portion (a 147FMJ-FP load). The training load comes in a 50 round box and the defense loads come in a 25 (?) round box.

Winchester’s link:

winchester.com/library/news/ … efend.aspx


#7

Leon - thank you. Hope all is well with you. My wife and I wish you Happy Holidays.


#8

Lew,
I noticed this new headstamp a month or so ago on Winchester Kinetic HE rounds with nickeled cases. Code stamped is 58HL20.
Printed on box fold-in tabs is
MP128
E130994
K678L

9077709-170784_8/14
2693228_ 6
_ 1

I find it ironic because the same time I picked up this box at Cabelas I picked up a box of Federal Independence with FC 9mm LUGER. This was the first time I noticed small mm in a FC headstamp. Made in Israel for Federal.


#9

My Lord, it just goes on and on. The headstamp game, my first love in cartridge collecting, is becoming unfathomable. How can anyone keep up with this? I don’t even know what “Federal Independence” is, nor Winchester “Kinetic HE” stands for. No longer able to go to the SHOT Show and thereby keep up on the new stuff through catalogs without spending 28 hours a day on the computer (no, not a typo. 24 hours a day is no longer enough) and with all the better gun shops closed within a 100+ mile radius of where I live, leaves me feeling like an idiot. Working in a top-end gun shop for so long, where we carried most major ammo lines, some to include every single load in their catalogs, I used to think both my knowledge and collection of US commercial pistol cartridges was pretty good. Now a think I am the most ignorant guy on this Forum on this stuff.

Gary, how about a picture of the Isreali-made Federal cartridge and box put on this thread?


#10

Gary,

I was thinking about what you said about the new use of “mm” on Federal headstamps. In the main, you are absolutely right. A search of my collection found no “FC 9mm LUGER” headstamp. However, they did use the lower-case
"mm" on most of the earlier “FC 9mm +P+” headstamps, but oddly, not on “+P” ones. Later on, they started using “FC 9MM +P+” and I recall, it took me awhile to find a loaded round with that headstamp. From then on, though, there was still an occasional use of the older style “FC 9mm +P+” headstamp with lower case “mm”. I takes a mind like a steel trap to remember all this stuff. Unfortunately, I have a mind like a steel trap, but it has been rusted shut for some time now.

Thanks for your sharp eyes on the Israeli stuff.


#11


Front and back of Winchester Kinetic HE with WIN 9MM LUGER headstamp and Federal Independence with FC 9mm LUGER.


Last box was a new one for me. Headstamp HPR 9mm LUGER 147 gr TMJ.

John,
Here are three new boxes with new headstamps (for me anyway.)
Gary


#12

58HL20 equates to 02 October 2014. The 8/14 on the tab is the print date. I weighed both the 9mm and 9MM varieties and they weighed the same. FC 9mm Luger made in Israel!?! (Gesture of exploding head here.)


#13

Gary - Thanks. I wonder what the HPR stands for. It is not the name of the company as it appears in the address on the back of the EMCOM box. Along with the prolific appearance of new headstamps is that of new companies. Looks like everyone with a loading press is becoming an ammunition company this days.


#14

John,
Just from the back of the box it appears that HPR just comes from HyPeR. They also have the most decorated cartridge tray that I have ever seen. Their logo is printed all across the sides and bottom of the paper tray that has a black plastic insert for holding the cartridges, unique to anything that I have seen before.
Gary


#15

HPR is High Precision Range on their website.


#16

This is the first I have heard of the “Kinetic HE” from Winchester. It looks as if they have just rebranded their typical non-descript personal defense hollow point line from Super-X into this. It’s a bit much if you ask me; “Kinetic HE” sort of smacks of a M1-Abrams fired anti-tank sabot, or a high-explosive rd or something. Sort of how Remington has rebranded their standard SJHP pistol loads into the somewhat over-hyped name of “High Terminal Performance”, and their Golden Saber into a more deliberately purposed name of “Ultimate Home Defense” or “Ultimate Defense”.

A google search reveals not much on this new branding, other that it seems to have unceremoniously appeared at Cabelas in recent weeks. This will no doubt be one of Winchester’s main items at SHOT show coming up.


#17

I just found a box of Winchester’s 9mm Super-X Super Unleaded 147gr. FMJ-Encapsulated ammo using nickel cases and having the new upper case “MM” (WIN 9MM LUGER), product code X9MMSU2CN.

Here’s a link to the same ammo at AmmoToGo:

ammunitiontogo.com/product_i … e-fmj-ammo


#18

Leon - if that is the right box for the MM headstamp (as opposed to mm) it makes me wonder how long the “new” headstamp has been out. While I have never seen that particular end label (a box for that loading), the silver box seems to me to be a somewhat older style than the new boxes, out the last couple of years, with a more dramatic box art.

I am purely going by what I have seen, which of late, isn’t much.

thanks for posting. The great thing about this forum is that with all the eyes looking for new items, and reporting them here, we all get a much better idea of what is going on the “Ammo World.”


#19

Leon, What is the load date stamped inside the endflap???

Cheers,
Lew


#20

[quote=“Lew”]Leon, What is the load date stamped inside the endflap???

Cheers,
Lew[/quote]

MP125
E130505
K6683