Non-WWII German Kurz


#1

I posted these on another board by request, thought they might be interesting here. The question was about non-German 7.92 Kurz ammo. I know I might get some disagreement on my caption, but…Oh well.

From left - FNM from Portugal (possibly made by Prvi), Czech (no h/s), Czech at S&B, East German, East German dummy, werkzeug (possibly DDR, Spain, or Argentina), Spain at FNP, Spanish werkzeug on German case, Argentina.



#2

What is the difference between werkzeug and dummy? How are they used differently?


#3

vlad, in Jonny’s pic it looks like the boxes you were handin out @ SLICS. I use mine all the time. =)


#4

Werkzeug: Inspection or “works” cartridge…held to better tolerances for use in Function testing, etc by Plant inspectors;

“Dummy” ( bad US slang)…correct term is “Drill Round” or Ger. "ExercierPatrone"
is an inert assembly, made especially ( drilled or fluted case, new or recycled brass) for use by Soldiers in training ( magazine filling, working the action, dismantling rifle, etc).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV ballistics.


#5

Aaron, come to PA shows, I’ll bring more.


#6

Yes, that’s one of my “Vlad-ware” boxes.
And YES, come to the Denver , PA show!


#7

Doc Av - I will take good-hearted exception to your belief that “Dummy” when applied to cartridges is “bad American slang.” It is the official term used for inert ammunition for instructional purposes and is printed on U.S. Military and commercial boxes. It is not slang. It probably originates from the printing occupation, where a “dummy” is a mockup of a puplication, real or proposed, that is usually made up for advertising purposes, or as a proposed book format to be submitted for approval.

Webster: dummy adj (1846) 1. Having the appearance of being real.

An American might call the use of “Drill” to describe functional dummy rounds as bad British slang, but that would be, of course, ignorant. It is simply a different word. As far as “Exerzierpatrone” (note spelling) goes, that is simply a German language form of Exercise cartridge and only used in German-speaking countries. It would be an incorrect term in China or Bolivia, etc., for example. Austria for years referred to a dummy cartridge as “Unterrichtspatrone” or, as close as I can translate it with my poor knowledge of German, “Educational cartridge.”

All three are perfectly correct and descriptive terms. None are “slang” by any measure of that word. Personally speaking, considering all the uses of an inert cartridge, not always used for educational or “drill” purposes, the term “dummy cartridge” is probably the most descriptive adjective for inert ammunition. They can be used for testing magazine function, teaching the loading and unloading of a weapon, advertising purposes, commercial or military displays (sometimes the same as advertising), souvenirs (also sometimes related to advertising, but sometimes not), to represent real cartridges in the designing of boxes (box-maker’s dummies), etc. In many of these cases, neither “exercise” or “drill” are really accurate to the function at hand. “Educational” is perhaps a better term, but the two best in my view are “inert cartridge” or “dummy cartridge.”

“America and the United Kingdom - two peoples divided by a common language.”

: ) : ( : )

John Moss


#8

I have to agree with JM. We’ve had this discussion before, recently. I thought at the time that we agreed that “Dummy” is the official nomenclature used by the US Military, except for those cartridges that are specifically designated and stenciled or headstamped as “Drill” or “Inert”.

Unfortunately, some US TMs only add to the confusion. TM 9-1900 covers all the bases:

Drill Ammunition. Drill or dummy ammunition is used for training in handling and loading (“service of the piece”). It is completely inert.

Other countries, of course, use their own designations.

Ray


#9

I would like you to show a cartridge called in German “Leere”.

Sorry John, I don’t know the correct English/US word for that.

Dutch


#10

Dutch, the German word you mean ist “Lehre”. The term you have used above (Leere) would mean “emptyness”.

The English term should be “gauge”.


#11

Dutch - is your Lehrepatrone genuine? I seem to recall some talk on the old forum about fakes in these? If genuine, that is quite a find! I don’t think I have ever seen one other than in pictures. There are “Lehrwaffen” as well. Cutaway Makarovs were rather crudely engraved Lehr on the side. A friend of mine has one. wish it was mine!

John Moss


#12

[quote=“jonnyc”]Yes, that’s one of my “Vlad-ware” boxes.
And YES, come to the Denver , PA show![/quote]

I think I just may. It is about 7 hours from me. Is it a decent size show?


#13

Yes John it is a good one.

Made you a picture that you can see the manufacturer code and the WaA 42 stamp.


#14

As John rightly says about two nations divided by a common language, the confusion lies in the definitions.

British military terminology until about 1926 used two terms. A “Dummy Drill” round was an inert round used for training soldiers as previously described. It needed to look as distinctly different from a ball round as possible to avoid mistakes and did not need to be the same weight. The other type was a “Dummy, Special for Inspectors” that was used by armourers to test weapon functioning. This did need to be as near as possible the same shape and weight as a ball round in order to test feeding, spring strengths etc.

Post the revision of nomenclature in 1926, “Drill” was used solely for training rounds and “Dummy” for Inspector’s rounds.

As this distinction was also used by all the Commonwealth countries I suspect that is the origin of DocAv’s remarks.

Regards
TonyE


#15

Jon & Dave’s show is about 1/3 of SLICS in size, fewer people (less competition!!!), I went last year and I liked it, also check out local gun shows like Leesport Farmers Market newsite.appalachianpromotions.co … x?tabid=60 if you are around.
By the way, when is the Denver,PA show?


#16

And of course the English word equivalent to the German Lehre can be spelled “gage,” which neatly dodges the problem many people have in placing the “u” in the five-letter version of this word. Jack


#17

Jack, was I wrong with “gauge” ?


#18

EOD: No, not at all. “Gauge” is perfectly correct, but many native English speakers misspell it as “Guage.” The spelling “gage” is also used in English but seems to be less frequently used. Please pardon my unintended confusion. Jack


#19

No, no, the American word can be spelled “gage”. An Englishman would never spell it that way!

Cheers
TonyE


#20

By the way, I have always called the steel gauges in cartridge form, from Germany, "Stahlpatronen."
I have been criticized and corrected for calling them that instead of Lehrenpatronen, but in actuality, a
wartime German price list for these very gauges refers to them as steel cartridges (“Stahlpatronen). Perhaps
it is a variation on the “cattle and cows” issue (all cows are cattle, but all cattle are not cows) and therefore
"All Stahlpatronen are Lehren but not all Lehren are Stahlpatronen.”

Boy, is that deep. I think I need a drink!

John Moss