Norma or Danish?

Hi all,
Are these Norma reloads or did someone just put Danish rounds in a Norma box?


Conclusions from the photos:
The box label was printed by the printshop of Arvika Nyheters (newspaper?) in August 1949. It shows the cartridges are what we call 8x58R for the Danish model 67/89 rifle (Remington rolling block). Print run was 15000 labels, which suggests 150000 cartridges were in this lot.
The cartridges have the Norma NP-marked primers, while the cases are Danish. Looks like a reloading job by Norma to me.
The crowning achievement is to have these rimmed cartridges offered on Gunbroker as being correct for rifles firing the German 7.9 mm military cartridge (“8 mm Mauser”). The buyer will find they do not fit. At least, no harm is done.

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To what I recall Norma had a Danish subsidiary and did exactly what we see in the photos here.
Wasn’t it in Otterup?

Funny somebody advertized these as 8mm Mauser…

Small nitpick:
The newspaper is called Arvika Nyheter (Arvika News).
“Arvika Nyheters tryckeri” translates to “Arvika News’ printing house” - the s after nyheter indicates possessive.

Thus this label was printed at Arvika’s local newspaper’s own printing house. Arvika is a rather small town near the Norwegian border.

Ole

Ole, I do not see it as nitpicking.
You have the background to correctly explain the wording. I am always in favour of setting the record straight.

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Thank you gentlemen for the in depth answers to my question, greatly appreciated.

Yup!
Otterup Ammunitionafabrik = Otterup Munitions Factory
They collaborated with Norma.

Wow, sometimes my memory is even close to working!

Norma was one of the founders and owners of the factory at Otterup. In 1994 Norma celebrated their 100 year anniversary and printed a book. While this book has a lot about the factories in Norway and Sweden, it only have a short paragraph about Dansk ammunitionsfabrik in Otterup. See my translation:

Dansk ammunitionfabrik AS 1911 – 1980.

Dansk ammunitionsfabrik was established in Otterup in 1911 by Norma Oslo, and it was the gunsmith Schultz and the editor of “Dansk skyttertidende” (the danish shooters journal), engineer Gerløw who went in companionship with Norma Oslo to start the factory. Niels Larsen who worked in the ammunitionfactory married Schultz’s daughter, and later became head of the factory. Eventually the rifle factory “Schultz and Larsen” was established as an own company. Niels Larsen became leader of both factories and was a real businessman with a nose for tracking down and buying cheap rifling and loading machines. It was S&L that fronted the market for both factories. The ammunitions factory was of a modest size, and the 8 – 10 employees were usually occupied with reloading cartridges with components from Oslo and Åmotfors. Later the factory started production of shotgun shells with components from RWS and other European suppliers. The ammunition factory made a good profit, and financed the development of S&L to become a renowned international supplier of competition guns. Schultz & Larsen rifle barrels and the so called “free rifles” and also pistols, became world famous and much sought after. Later it was in particular the S&L mod. 57, 65 and 68 hunting rifles that were popular and with the Norma magnum cartridges were marketed as the “Norma rifle”. The ammunition factory was sold in 1960 to the Larsen family and closed in 1980. Norwegian and Swedish shooters have until these days used S&L barrels in their match rifles, but the production stopped in 1994. S&L are today a retailer exclucively.

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About the Norma box with the danish cases. Norma in Oslo started to buy once fired brass from the army around 1907 - 08. The factories in Sweden and Denmark did the same from 1911. The cases were cheap, but eventually they started to make their own cases. The factory in Sweden made cases for all three factories. So at one time Norma must have reloaded used millitary cases for the 8mm rolling blocks (and danish Krag), and then switched to new cases with NORMA headstamps. Used millitary cases could have been used in between as well if they were available. I have a swedish box of the same kind that swedish millitary 6,5x55 ammo comes in, but with a Norma label, and swedish cases from the 1890’s. There are no NP on the primers, so maybe Norma got hold of surplus ammo and simply replaced the bullet? Only my speculation of course. I also have a similar, but empty box with a Häll’s label.


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A kind correction: There is no Danish Remington rolling block designated as 67/89. Here, the Swedish rifle m/67-89 is clearly meant.

And: Of what I know, DA Otterup never made loads for 8x58R-chambered Rolling Blocks (not confuse it with loads for Krag-Jørgensen rifles in this case). But if there is a proof of it somewhere (box or document), it would be of highest interest to see it.

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Thank you for the correction. I relied on Jean Huon’s book from 2006 regarding the Rolling Block.

The Danish Marines “recieved” (neglected is more likely!) an altered M1867 rolling block, chambered for the 8x58R in 1893. The state/quality of said actions as far as material was deemed for 1600bar max. Thus a special marine 8x58R was made to follow the 11.4x51R M1867/96 pressures.

Thus:

I will dissect it as best as i can!
The smokeless powder is to be delivered in throughtly blended batches of at least 2500kg~5500lbs after it has been left to gass off for at least 6 weeks. And after the powder factory has done a speed and pressure proof.

From top to bottom:
Rifle 1889 (cartridge 1908) Middle/median pressure where no pressure exceeds 2600bar and no single pressure exceeds 2800bar. (even though speed falls short of 750m/s
Remington Rolling Block 1867/96: No single pressure exceeds 1600bar even though speed falls short of 476m/s
Remington Rolling Block 1867/97: No single pressure exceeds 1200bar even though speed falls short of 400m/s

The interesting thing is that the Danes did mettalurgical tests and deemed the Danish made RB’s with German Vitten barrel steel is of way superior quality compared to the US soueced ones with Sheffield steel barrels. Thus the way different loading of cartridges.
Look for M1867/96 and it will be explained there:

https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_patroner_list.php?goto=2

And it would’nt!
M1867/96 was loaded with 2,4grams of smokeless and the M1867/97 was loaded with 2,1grams of smokeless. Distinguished by a chisel mark across the bottom for the latter.

So there were kinda sorta (@800 converted) Danish rolling blocks in 8x58R, Easily distinquished by the over barrel wood.

The interesting thing is that Norway did a RB in 8x58R in 1888 and the Swedes in 1889, So the Danes was way behind on the RB’s.

I just dug through several hundred of spent cases and found only 1896 with a chisel mark and 1900. I think the US rifles was put on the backburner “for war time only” and thus rarely shot. Resulting in rare cartridges.

Man this is though on a fine port wine boozer!

Attack me in the morning and i’ll get on to it again :slight_smile:
Im to bummed out now!

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In theory anyone looking for “8mm Mauser” ammunition would/should know that this is not.
Wonder what it did sell for?
Is anyone else tempted to track down the seller and tell them they need to figure out what they are selling before they list it?