Norma School cartridges 3006


#1

Sorry for my bad writing. But i hope this is interesting.

After WW2 the Norwegian army used 3006 in rifles and machineguns. In Norway the caliber was called 7,62 or 7,62X63. I have some 7,62mm (30-06) school cartridges(Skolepatroner). These are short range reduced loads produced by Norma Projectile Factory in 1959,
the package says “for use on 10 to 15 meters.” The cartridges was ment used as practice ammunition for soldiers at short range shooting.

School cartridges have a hollow point empty jacket without lead

The jacket is magnetic.

The cartridges are made with reloaded brass and bottomstamps are from many American manufacturers and were from the years 1942 to 1952. Here is a remington 1942, it is stamped RA 42.

Since I have a lot of these they had to be tested. Some may think it is foolish to shoot such ammunition but I think the ammunition is made to be fired ;)

I rigged a 30 meter target at about 30 yards. And since i was shooting i had to test the speed too. The recoil is almost non-existent, but the sound is almost like ball cartridges. The chrony shoved approximately 810 meters per second and accuracy at 30 meters was not very impressive, it was five shots at 3 cm, which was certainly useful in terms of what the ammunition was intended to be used for.
I also had a target at 100m so I had the ammunition tested there too. At 100m the ammunition hit approximately 10 cm to the left of ball ammunition, but the precision was approximately 10-15 cm. Not exactly impressive but the precision was the really good considering that range was nearly 10 times as long as it stood on the package that the ammunition would be used for. There was also a bit windy so I think that the precision may have been affected by this.

School cartridges were an interesting acquaintance. Since they had actually useable precision at 30 meters and almost useable precision at 100m surely they could have been used to educate people in the shooting. And it’s just that they have been used for.


Some 30-06 help please
#2

Looks Like a Reloaded Remington Arms 1942 AN-M2 (Aviation) type case…with the full deep ring in the head…a type of .30 cal supplied in great quantity to Britain’s RAF for .30 cal Brownings in American Aircraft…obviously passed on to the Norwegians both during WW II ( Norway’s forces in Britain) and after the war.

Well travelled cartridge case.

Doc AV


#3

Lumberjack,

Thank you for posting the pictures and information on the Skolepatroner.

Is the projectile / bullet jacket magnetic?

Can you post a picture of the package or box these cartridges come in?

Brian


#4

Here is a picture of a box

and some variations of the cartridge
left to right:
22 grain GMCS bullet with small round hole
18 grain CNCS bullet with diamond shaped hole
solid CNCS bullet (weight unknown)

cheers
René


#5

I believe that is a standard Cal .30 case as manufactured by Remington. The ring crimp was requested by the UK for the production of the Remington contract rounds and Remington asked for and received permission to use the same crimp on ammunition produced for U.S. wartime use. UK contract ammunition has a different headstamp. Remington used that style crimp on some of the ammunition they produced as early as 1940 and as late as 1945 (or later?).

“AN” designates ammunition that meets specifications for both Army and Navy use and has nothing to do with aviation.


#6

T%he Reason The UK requested the “Ring Crimp” was expressly for increased retention of the Primer in aviation Use… During WW I (1917=8) US.C.Co. also made .30 cal expressly for use in Marlin aircraft Guns, with this ring ( and additional stab crimps as well). and the design idea was carried on into the US standardised “AN-M2” ammunition, which was for the US Army Air Corps, and the US Naval Air units ( a common Aircraft ammo). The Primers were also made to a higher standard, initially…by WW II, all primers (Both in UK and USA) were made to the same Higher standard, so the any ammo could be classed as “Aviation.”

The Use of the Term “AN”, referring to both Guns and Ammunition ( such as the .30cal MG, AN-M2, and the .50Cal MG AN-M2 and M3) refer specifically to Aircraft MGs for both the USAAF and the USN Air Service. It ensured that a common gun design and common ammo specs were used by all the Air forces under US command. The AN-M2 Guns were not interchangeable with the corresponding Army Ground Guns. ( ie,.30 M1919A4, .50 M2HB .50 M2 Watercooled) ( different construction specification.)

The UK ,in buying many US-Built aircraft early in the war, accepted them with AN-M2 .30 cal Brownings, so it was natural that they took the correct corresponding ammo as well.

The first orders of “RA .300 Z 40” ammo was a “Cash and Carry” order (before the “Lend-Lease Act” of 1941). Britain used the “thousandths” description of ammunition.
Later orders continued the .300 Z, but when Lend Lease was fully established, supplies were simply using US headstamps ( ie, RA 42), given the large volumes Remington was turning out for the USAAF and USN.

it is true, that “AN-M2” ammo was “downgraded” to ground use after one or two years, as well as any which had been used in the Air at normal operational altitudes ie, a Plane’s Guns were completely re-supplied when it landed after a sortie, whether it used all its ammo or not. High altitude, extreme cold, changes in humidity all affected Primer reliability, both in synchronised guns (few) and Remote Wing Guns (Many). Even for the Gunner-operated MGs in Single or Turret mountings, a primer failure or jam was life-threatening.

BY Mid-WW II, the requirements for .30 ANM-2 ammo dropped, because Aircraft were increasingly using .50 cal and 20mm; but supplies for Britain continued, up till 1945. More was made for Aircraft with .30ANM-2 Guns passed over to Allied Airforces in the late war and Postwar years.

I don’t know when the designation “AN-M2” was dropped from packet labels, and the Impressed Ring deleted from the case head…1945 seems a good point? Are there any with Later Dates?

Doc AV

BTW, in recycling lots of Lake City-Loaded M1909 Blanks (using recycled fired cases, pulled down ball ammo), I have found “RA 42 and 43” etc. Cases with a Normal Headstamp (NO ring)…These came out of a large Lot supplied by LC via the US Military Aid program to Jordan, in the 1960s. When the Blanks were surplussed, they were used in “Saving Private Ryan” and “The Great Raid” (This is where I got all the fired cases, as I was a Supplier of Ordnance for this latter film)., SO Remington made Both “Army” standard .30cal M2 and M2 Alt. Ammo during WW II, and also made AN-M2 ammo with the Base ring. Their Plant/s must have been running three shifts and weekends as well.

IN the blank cases recovered ( some 100,000) there was every year from 1939 to 1960, All the US Wartime Factories, and even “National Match cases” (FA39, FA60).But NO “AN-M2” Cases at all.


#7

DocAV

I think we may be arguing apples and oranges and that you read a lot more into my post than I intended. My comments were directed only toward the Cal .30 case and headstamp shown.

Like all of us who collect US Military, I am well aware of the WWI U.S.C.Co. ammunition with the heavy ring crimp for aircraft use. I am also aware of the UK contract ammunition by Remington in the early 1940s. My comments were intended to voice my opinion that the case shown had nothing to do with the contract cartridges nor did it have anything to do with ammunition made for aircraft MG use. The headstamp and ring crimp were used by Remington for standard WWII Ball ammunition and is very common. During the same time, they also used the standard crimp along with the ring crimp.

I may have mis-read or mis-understood your reference to “AN-M2” designation. I was thinking of ammunition such as the cartons shown below. That’s a standard Army/Navy M2 designation used by most of the Ordnance Plants during and well after WWII (late 1950s ?).

Not to start another seperate discussion, but M2 ALT refers to the bullet composition and, like the AN, has nothing to do with how it was used.

Ray


#8

The double circular crimp I have on Remington Arms company product headstamps starting in 1918 thru 1945 when they were stopped as they determined that this was causing extra initial stress and later upon firing causing case and head splits. I have first hand noticed this myself firing such rounds. They started this whole process of the double heavy ring crimp as they were having problems with primers blowing out in various weapons even with a six stab crip they tried in 1918. I would like to see documentation of the Brits asking for such a crimp, as I have examined U.S. production rounds in boxes marked expressly for RAF use for the time period discussed without such a crimp.

As far as “AN-M2” on box labels of M2 BALL. I have 20 round boxes out of various repack spam cans or just singles bought or traded that have with the “AN-M2” on box labels , of various manufacturers, manufactured all the way into the late 1950’s. Doubt seriously this is for aircraft machine gun use. Of course I am just a novice and willing to learn.

joe


#9

Joe

I think you’ve answered DocAV’s comment about not finding any of the ring crimped cases among the fired and/or recovered cases that he has seen and used. They obviously can be reloaded - I’ve tried a few myself - but they are a PITA.

As to the UK contract, see HWS 2, page 56.

The “AN” designator is well documented. I believe it’s in MIL-STD-1168, or somewhere like that. It applies to more than just small arms ammunition.

Ray


#10

Doc AV, the designation “AN” refer to joint Army-Navy specifications and has nothing to do with aircrafts, as the .30 M2 machine gun was already made for that purpose, either designated “AN” or not. As mentioned by Ray, the “Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, AN-M2” is an Army-Navy designation for the M2 ball cartridge and has no relation with the AN-M2 machine gun. Also, there is no such thing as a case type designated “AN-M2”.

I’m not aware of any evidence indicating that the AN-M2 designation for cal. .30 M2 ammunition was used during the war. As a matter of fact, it was not approved until August 5, 1949, when it was standarized by the US Army as the “Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 AN-M2 Alternative” (MIL-C-1313A). This same designation continued when MIL-C-1313A(2) was approved on November 15, 1950, and MIL-C-1313A(3) on April 18, 1951. It was in use at least until October 1955, when it was last listed in the index of standards. I couldn’t find any mention of this designation after that date.

Regards,

Fede


#11

[quote=“bdgreen”]Is the projectile / bullet jacket magnetic?

Can you post a picture of the package or box these cartridges come in?[/quote]
The “projectile” is magnetic.
I have the kind with large hollow points. The cases are from many manufacturers, some american/canadian and also from norwegian raufoss ammunition factory. All the “school cartridges” i have seen have reloaded cases.

The same kind of package my cartridges are in is posted in a picture here:

[quote=“FlyingDutchman”]Here is a picture of a box


[/quote]


#12

Norma did also make school cartridges in 7,92mm.

By the way, this was made at Norma Projektilfabrikk (projectile factory) in Norway, not in Sweden.


#13

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Joe

I think you’ve answered DocAV’s comment about not finding any of the ring crimped cases among the fired and/or recovered cases that he has seen and used. They obviously can be reloaded - I’ve tried a few myself - but they are a PITA.

As to the UK contract, see HWS 2, page 56.

The “AN” designator is well documented. I believe it’s in MIL-STD-1168, or somewhere like that. It applies to more than just small arms ammunition.

Ray[/quote]

Ray,

I do not see what HWS 2, page 56 is suppose to tell me?? I would like to see documentation of the Brits asking for such a crimp.

I have such heavy ring crimp cases US arsenal reloaded and made into M1909 blanks in the 50’ or 60’s with that fire engine red primer sealant or the light green stuff. So we made theses once fired casings into blanks at one time. I have seen people reload them and have examples, but never attempted it myself as the problems I had with initial case and head splitting upon initial firing.

Joe


#14

[quote=“Lumberjack”]Norma did also make school cartridges in 7,92mm.

By the way, this was made at Norma Projektilfabrikk (projectile factory) in Norway, not in Sweden.[/quote]

Yes, various 7,92 casings foreign and domestic. Most have nickel primers with an “NP” impressed upon them.

Joe

Addition; The casing I refer to are reloads, very nicely done.


#15

3006 School cartridges have i also seen with Norwegian brass(RA or AYR stamped Raufoss cases)


#16

Joe

You are right. HWS does not cite the contract specs calling for the ring crimp. But, the text strongly implies that such was the case and, based on it and the known examples of the actual cartridges, I inferred it was a requirement.

I see HWS I and II as the single most important reference for U.S. military SAA. If they said it, I will accept it until proven otherwise.

Ray