Ny safe act


#1

Vlad and you other New Yorkers. Maybe this has been discussed before but I don’t remember it. I’ve heard about the so-called NY SAFE ACT that requires a background check before you can receive ammunition from someone outside the State. Is this actually a law in effect? What are the details?

Ray


#2

Ray- WHen discussing laws, it it better to get the “official” interpretation rather than what the victims think it means.

From the New York State Sheriff’s Association website:
http://www.nysheriffs.org/articles/new-york-secure-ammunition-and-firearms-enforcement-act-2013-effective-dates

"Registration of Ammunition Sellers: MUST BE REGISTERED BY JANUARY 15, 2014

  •   The new law requires that ammunition sellers, who are not licensed firearm dealers, must register with the State Police
    
  •   Ammunition sellers may begin registering on April 15, 2013.
    

New Requirements for Ammunition Sellers: EFFECTIVE JANUARY 15, 2014

  •   By next year, sellers of ammunition will be required to perform a limited background check prior to any sale.  This will entail petitioning the State Police’s soon-to-be constructed registry database."
    

Gossip on forums seems to indicate that out of state retailers will not sell direct to NY residents, but that one option might be for an out of state seller to ship to a NY FFL dealer who would then do the required background check and transfer it to the buyer. Of course that will probably require some sort of “transfer fee” charge by the dealer, as well as lots of hassles, and the addition of the buyer to a de facto list of gun owners (even if they are actually just harmless cartridge collectors). There does NOT seem to be any restriction on NY residents purchasing ammo out of state and hauling it home.

We can all be thankful that this new law will instantly disarm all the drug dealers and gang bangers… [just kidding…]


#3

Thanks John. The reason I asked here is because I could not find anyone who knew (most of the guys I hang with are shooters not cartridge collectors) and the link to the Sheriff’s site will not open.

But, after seeing your summary, it looks like something I’d rather not know about. Things like that used to make me angry. I’m now too old to care.

Ray


#4

Ray,
I guess John knows more than I. I thought that the law mentioned “significant amount” of ammunition, but I really don’t know. It appears that progressives are just pushing through any anti ammo and anti gun laws as fast as they can. This is in an environment in which almost half of the highly learned US Supreme Court believe that only certain parts of US Constitution’s Bill of Rights pertain to American people. We’ll see next year. Hey, Ray, you have any lots for sale next to you?


#5

Here is the actual section from the SAFE Act bill (Senate Bill 2230) dealing with ammunition sales, and also a mandatory requriement to report the theft or loss of ammunition.
Looks like their format is normal Upper and Lower case for existing law, and ALL CAPS FOR NEW LANGUAGE PROPOSED IN THE BILL. Numbers at left are line numbers for each page that legislators refer to when discussing a bill, and I am too lazy to strip them out. My two explanatory notes are in Italics.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=S02230&Summary=Y&Text=Y

QUOTE (from pages 35-38 and 49 of Senate Bill 2230 the SAFE Act.)
(Page 21 line 49 defines:)
“SELLER OF AMMUNITION" MEANS ANY PERSON, FIRM, PARTNERSHIP, CORPORATION OR COMPANY WHO ENGAGES IN THE BUSINESS OF PURCHASING, SELLING OR KEEPING AMMUNITION.

(now pages 35-38)
S 50. The penal law is amended by adding a new section 400.03 to read
40 as follows:
41 S 400.03 SELLERS OF AMMUNITION.
42 1. A SELLER OF AMMUNITION AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION TWENTY-FOUR OF
43 SECTION 265.00 OF THIS CHAPTER SHALL REGISTER WITH THE SUPERINTENDENT OF
44 STATE POLICE IN A MANNER PROVIDED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT. ANY DEALER IN
45 FIREARMS THAT IS VALIDLY LICENSED PURSUANT TO SECTION 400.00 OF THIS
46 ARTICLE SHALL NOT BE REQUIRED TO COMPLETE SUCH REGISTRATION.
47 2. ANY SELLER OF AMMUNITION OR DEALER IN FIREARMS SHALL KEEP A RECORD
48 BOOK APPROVED AS TO FORM BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE. IN THE
49 RECORD BOOK SHALL BE ENTERED AT THE TIME OF EVERY TRANSACTION INVOLVING
50 AMMUNITION THE DATE, NAME, AGE, OCCUPATION AND RESIDENCE OF ANY PERSON
51 FROM WHOM AMMUNITION IS RECEIVED OR TO WHOM AMMUNITION IS DELIVERED, AND
52 THE AMOUNT, CALIBRE, MANUFACTURER’S NAME AND SERIAL NUMBER, OR IF NONE,
53 ANY OTHER DISTINGUISHING NUMBER OR IDENTIFICATION MARK ON SUCH AMMUNI-
54 TION. THE RECORD BOOK SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE PREMISES MENTIONED AND
55 DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL REASONABLE HOURS FOR
56 INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO HIS OR HER SPECIAL
S. 2230 35 A. 2388

1  DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.  ANY RECORD PRODUCED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION
2  AND  ANY  TRANSMISSION  THEREOF  TO  ANY  GOVERNMENT AGENCY SHALL NOT BE
3  CONSIDERED A PUBLIC RECORD FOR PURPOSES OF ARTICLE  SIX  OF  THE  PUBLIC
4  OFFICERS LAW.
5    3.  NO  LATER  THAN  THIRTY DAYS AFTER THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE STATE
6  POLICE CERTIFIES THAT THE STATEWIDE LICENSE AND RECORD  DATABASE  ESTAB-
7  LISHED PURSUANT TO SECTION 400.02 OF THIS ARTICLE IS OPERATIONAL FOR THE
8  PURPOSES  OF  THIS  SECTION,  A  DEALER IN FIREARMS LICENSED PURSUANT TO
9  SECTION 400.00 OF THIS ARTICLE, A SELLER OF  AMMUNITION  AS  DEFINED  IN

10 SUBDIVISION TWENTY-FOUR OF SECTION 265.00 OF THIS CHAPTER SHALL NOT
11 TRANSFER ANY AMMUNITION TO ANY OTHER PERSON WHO IS NOT A DEALER IN
12 FIREARMS AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION NINE OF SUCH SECTION 265.00 OR A
13 SELLER OF AMMUNITION AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION TWENTY-FOUR OF SECTION
14 265.00 OF THIS CHAPTER, UNLESS:
15 (A) BEFORE THE COMPLETION OF THE TRANSFER, THE LICENSEE OR SELLER
16 CONTACTS THE STATEWIDE LICENSE AND RECORD DATABASE AND PROVIDES THE
17 DATABASE WITH INFORMATION SUFFICIENT TO IDENTIFY SUCH DEALER OR SELLER,
18 TRANSFEREE BASED ON INFORMATION ON THE TRANSFEREE’S IDENTIFICATION DOCU-
19 MENT AS DEFINED IN PARAGRAPH © OF THIS SUBDIVISION, AS WELL AS THE
20 AMOUNT, CALIBRE, MANUFACTURER’S NAME AND SERIAL NUMBER, IF ANY, OF SUCH
21 AMMUNITION;
22 (B) THE SYSTEM PROVIDES THE LICENSEE OR SELLER WITH A UNIQUE IDENTIFI-
23 CATION NUMBER; AND
24 © THE TRANSFEROR HAS VERIFIED THE IDENTITY OF THE TRANSFEREE BY
25 EXAMINING A VALID STATE IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT OF THE TRANSFEREE ISSUED
26 BY THE DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES OR IF THE TRANSFEREE IS NOT A RESI-
27 DENT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, A VALID IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT ISSUED BY
28 THE TRANSFEREE’S STATE OR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE CONTAINING A PHOTOGRAPH
29 OF THE TRANSFEREE.
30 4. IF THE DATABASE DETERMINES THAT THE PURCHASER OF AMMUNITION IS
31 ELIGIBLE TO POSSESS AMMUNITION PURSUANT TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, THE
32 SYSTEM SHALL:
33 (A) ASSIGN A UNIQUE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER TO THE TRANSFER; AND
34 (B) PROVIDE THE LICENSEE OR SELLER WITH THE NUMBER.
35 5. IF THE STATEWIDE LICENSE AND RECORD DATABASE NOTIFIES THE LICENSEE
36 OR SELLER THAT THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO THE DATABASE DOES NOT DEMON-
37 STRATE THAT THE RECEIPT OF AMMUNITION BY SUCH OTHER PERSON WOULD VIOLATE
38 18 U.S.C. 922(G) OR STATE LAW, AND THE LICENSEE TRANSFERS AMMUNITION TO
39 SUCH OTHER PERSON, THE LICENSEE SHALL INDICATE TO THE DATABASE THAT SUCH
40 TRANSACTION HAS BEEN COMPLETED AT WHICH POINT A RECORD OF SUCH TRANS-
41 ACTION SHALL BE CREATED WHICH SHALL BE ACCESSIBLE BY THE DIVISION OF
42 STATE POLICE AND MAINTAINED FOR NO LONGER THAN ONE YEAR FROM POINT OF
43 PURCHASE, WHICH SHALL NOT BE INCORPORATED INTO THE DATABASE ESTABLISHED
44 PURSUANT TO SECTION 400.02 OF THIS ARTICLE OR THE REGISTRY ESTABLISHED
45 PURSUANT TO SUBDIVISION SIXTEEN-A OF SECTION 400.00 OF THIS ARTICLE. THE
46 DIVISION OF STATE POLICE MAY SHARE SUCH INFORMATION WITH A LOCAL LAW
47 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. EVIDENCE OF THE PURCHASE OF AMMUNITION IS NOT
48 SUFFICIENT TO ESTABLISH PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PURCHASER HAS
49 COMMITTED A CRIME ABSENT OTHER INFORMATION TENDING TO PROVE THE COMMIS-
50 SION OF A CRIME. RECORDS ASSEMBLED OR ACCESSED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION
51 SHALL NOT BE SUBJECT TO DISCLOSURE PURSUANT TO ARTICLE SIX OF THE PUBLIC
52 OFFICERS LAW. THIS REQUIREMENT OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY (I) IF A
53 BACKGROUND CHECK CANNOT BE COMPLETED BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS NOT OPERA-
54 TIONAL AS DETERMINED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, OR WHERE IT
55 CANNOT BE ACCESSED BY THE PRACTITIONER DUE TO A TEMPORARY TECHNOLOGICAL
56 OR ELECTRICAL FAILURE, AS SET FORTH IN REGULATION, OR (II) A DEALER OR
S. 2230 36 A. 2388

1  SELLER  HAS  BEEN GRANTED A WAIVER FROM CONDUCTING SUCH BACKGROUND CHECK
2  IF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE DETERMINES  THAT  SUCH  DEALER  IS
3  INCAPABLE  OF  SUCH  CHECK DUE TO TECHNOLOGICAL LIMITATIONS THAT ARE NOT
4  REASONABLY  WITHIN  THE  CONTROL  OF  THE  DEALER,  OR OTHER EXCEPTIONAL
5  CIRCUMSTANCES DEMONSTRATED BY THE DEALER, PURSUANT TO A  PROCESS  ESTAB-
6  LISHED IN REGULATION, AND AT THE DISCRETION OF SUCH SUPERINTENDENT.
7    6.  IF  THE  SUPERINTENDENT  OF STATE POLICE CERTIFIES THAT BACKGROUND
8  CHECKS OF AMMUNITION PURCHASERS MAY BE CONDUCTED  THROUGH  THE  NATIONAL
9  INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM, USE OF THAT SYSTEM BY A DEALER

10 OR SELLER SHALL BE SUFFICIENT TO SATISFY SUBDIVISIONS FOUR AND FIVE OF
11 THIS SECTION AND SUCH CHECKS SHALL BE CONDUCTED THROUGH SUCH SYSTEM,
12 PROVIDED THAT A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTION SHALL BE FORWARDED TO THE
13 STATE POLICE IN A FORM DETERMINED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT.
14 7. NO COMMERCIAL TRANSFER OF AMMUNITION SHALL TAKE PLACE UNLESS A
15 LICENSED DEALER IN FIREARMS OR REGISTERED SELLER OF AMMUNITION ACTS AS
16 AN INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN THE TRANSFEROR AND THE ULTIMATE TRANSFEREE OF
17 THE AMMUNITION FOR THE PURPOSES OF CONTACTING THE STATEWIDE LICENSE AND
18 RECORD DATABASE PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION. SUCH TRANSFER BETWEEN THE
19 DEALER OR SELLER, AND TRANSFEREE MUST OCCUR IN PERSON.
20 8. A SELLER OF AMMUNITION WHO FAILS TO REGISTER PURSUANT TO THIS
21 SECTION AND SELLS AMMUNITION, FOR A FIRST OFFENSE, SHALL BE GUILTY OF A
22 VIOLATION AND SUBJECT TO THE FINE OF ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND FOR A
23 SECOND OFFENSE, SHALL BE GUILTY OF A CLASS A MISDEMEANOR.
24 A SELLER OF AMMUNITION THAT FAILS TO KEEP ANY RECORD REQUIRED PURSUANT
25 TO THIS SECTION, FOR A FIRST OFFENSE SHALL BE GUILTY OF A VIOLATION AND
26 SUBJECT TO A FINE OF FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS, AND FOR A SECOND OFFENSE
27 SHALL BE GUILTY OF A CLASS B MISDEMEANOR, AND THE REGISTRATION OF SUCH
28 SELLER SHALL BE REVOKED.
29 S 51. Section 400.10 of the penal law, as added by chapter 531 of the
30 laws of 1984, and subdivision 1 as amended and subdivision 3 as added by
31 chapter 189 of the laws of 2000, is amended to read as follows:
32 S 400.10 Report of theft or loss of a firearm, rifle or shotgun.
33 1. (a) Any owner or other person lawfully in possession of: (I) a
34 firearm, rifle or, shotgun who suffers the loss or theft of said weapon;
35 (II) AMMUNITION AS WELL AS A FIREARM, RIFLE OR SHOTGUN WHO SUFFERS THE
36 LOSS OR THEFT OF SUCH AMMUNITION AS WELL AS A FIREARM, RIFLE OR SHOTGUN;
37 OR (III) AMMUNITION AND IS A DEALER IN FIREARMS OR SELLER OF AMMUNITION
38 WHO SUFFERS THE LOSS OR THEFT OF SUCH AMMUNITION shall within twenty-
39 four hours of the discovery of the loss or theft report the facts and
40 circumstances of the loss or theft to a police department or sheriff’s
41 office.
42 (b) Whenever a person reports the theft or loss of a firearm, rifle
43 [or], shotgun OR AMMUNITION to any police department or sheriff’s
44 office, the officer or department receiving such report shall forward
45 notice of such theft or loss to the division of state police via the New
46 York Statewide Police Information Network. The notice shall contain
47 information in compliance with the New York Statewide Police Information
48 Network Operating Manual, including the caliber, make, model, manufac-
49 turer’s name and serial number, if any, and any other distinguishing
50 number or identification mark on the weapon.
51 2. The division of state police shall receive, collect and file the
52 information referred to in subdivision one of this section. The division
53 shall cooperate, and undertake to furnish or make available to law
54 enforcement agencies this information, for the purpose of coordinating
55 law enforcement efforts to locate such weapons.
S. 2230 37 A. 2388

1    3.  Notwithstanding  any  other provision of law, a violation of para-
2  graph (a) of subdivision one of this section shall be  [punishable  only
3  by a fine not to exceed one hundred dollars] A CLASS A MISDEMEANOR.

END QUOTE


#6

I understand that “ammunition” is but one small part of the NY SAFE Act. The Lord help us if laws like this ever reach out and touch the rest of us.

Ray


#7

The SAFE Act is the biggest pieces of garbage legislation ever…and the traitors who wrote it and voted for it under a false “Message of Necessity” should suffer a traitors fate…

But in any case, from someone from here, and who lives and breathes this every day since it passed…

Until Jan 15th, 2014, there are no additional restrictions on ammo purchases…AFTER Jan 15th, supposedly a NICs type check would need to be performed on EVERY ammunition purchase. However, NICs already told NYS to pound salt, there is no way they are doing any checks for them…and NYS has no money to implement said background check system…at all!

So general consensus and rumor now is that will go away as unfeasible…however there may still be a requirement for ID and logging in ammo sales by dealers, and possibly “reporting” of large quantity sales…

There are also MANY lawsuits in various phases of completion, asking for injunctive relief…so we’ll see…

But as for now, and for at least 3 months or so, no new restrictions…After Jan 15th…who knows…


#8

Remember there is another option if the feds refuse to do background checks for NY ammunition sales.

The same as for class 3 purchases where the Chief Law Enforcement officer refuses to sign off on the forms. Or where Holder’s Department of Justice refuses to act on (approve or deny) expungement requests to restore gun rights. In these cases, since the statutory process requires action by those officials, and if the action has not taken place, it is not possible to appeal the decision (since none was given!).

Thus, it is possible that New York could just leave the law on the books, and prosecute anyone who does not get (the impossible to get!) background check prior to ammunition purchase. I know this sounds totally ridiculous, and contrary to common sense. But, it is no sillier than making it illegal to put more than 7 rounds in a 10 round magazine. Or, exempting retired cops from all the nonsense. Basically it would dry up the supply of ammunition, and ammunition control has been one of the top priorities of the gun-grabbers as a round about means of disarming the public.

This law should be overwhelming evidence that even if you are “just a cartridge collector” that you need to be every bit as involved in fighting stupid laws on other aspects of gun ownership as the guys with antiques, trap and skeet guns, evil scope sighted sniper rifles (also known as deer rifles), the “black rifle” competitive shooters, and the casual plinkers or licensed conceal carry folks.


#9

New Yorkers (and people from Massachusetts and Connecticut) will simply keep doing what they have been doing for years. Drive to a neighboring state such as Vermont or New Hampshire and purchase their ammunition, “high capacity” magazines, tobacco products, gasoline, etc… there… Saw this happen a lot at a gun shop I used to frequent in Vermont. Lots of folks take vacation trips to Vermont for skiing or foliage season and stock up on the things they can’t get back home or that are taxed too high… Lots of Vermonters also go to sales tax free New Hampshire for their expensive purchases. Even though you are supposed to report the purchase on your state income tax return, and pay the tax retroactively to Vermont, there is no enforcement mechanism in place to make you do it.

AKMS


#10

Fortunately for us North Easterners there are three cartridge shows within reasonable driving distance; Morgantown and Williamsport in PA, and in ME (sorry Matt, forgot the town).


#11

Jon - that’s in Manchester, NH. I am trying to sort out when / if we can do that show in the same place so as to avoid winter weather, hunting season, something that works with my seasonal busy schedule, and something that works with the store / range owner. I want to try and get it into his big store in Hooksett which sees tons of daily foot traffic…

On the NY legislation; The intent is no doubt geared towards businesses / people who sell ammunition in box quantity as part of typical business transactions, and also geared (liked most all NY state laws) towards NY city in general. Although the definition mentions persons who “keep” ammunition in their possession, I can’t imagine that they mean collectors will need to be keeping detailed records with ID copies etc for transacting some oddball collector rds. The District Attorneys use their discretion with these laws, and as I have noticed for years how collectors selling pistol AP ammo on Gunbroker in states with felony laws concerning the possession or sale of this type of ammo have gone unnoticed and unpunished, I imagine the same will be true in NY for collectors with regard to small quantity cartridges. NY anti-gun types just want to ban guns & ammo at any cost and be able to tell their constituents that they did something.


#12

I have a Field Manual/guide in PDF form published for the NYS Police in regards to their guidelines for handling the “Safe Act”. No mention anywhere of ammunition. I can forward this to anyone if they wish to read it. (I don’t know how to post it here.) Just weapons and magazines seem to be the only priority. Most of the county Sheriff’s have decided that this is basically what they will base their enforcement on also. I was told by our county sheriff that until the state comes up with a workable system for doing background checks on ammo they will do nothing. NYS carry permits will now be required to be re-certified every 5 years. In the past a permit was “good until revoked”. They also have no guide lines in place for doing this either. The County sheriff is the issuing agent for the state pistol permits and they do not have the personnel or funding or infrastructure for so called recertifation at this time. ATF has no interest in this at all. There are MANY law suits filed and althought a couple have been thrown out there are several that have merit. This law like the “affordable Healthcare act” is seriously flawed and will take some time to sort it all out. The ammo recording was tried before in this state, didn’t work and was abandonded, pistol cartridge sales (anything interchangable) had to be recorded by the dealer, no back ground check. Lasted about 18 months over 30 years ago. The COBIS law was a colossal failure. costing 4$million/year to enforce each year and not one crime was solved with it. The law was not repealed but simply budgeted out. Micro-stamping was also budgeted out even before it could be voted on.
I am hopeful that some small iota of common sense still exists in our micro-brained politicians heads and realizes what a mistake they made…hmmm I won’t hold my breath.