Odd Israeli 7.92x57mm box


#1

I recently purchased a rather extensive 7.92x57mm box collection and have been having the greatest time scanning and cataloging them into my data base.

I am puzzled by one box in particular. It is Israeli and was sealed and unopened. I can’t stand not knowing what’s in a box so I steamed off the tape on one end of the box and opened it. To my surprise all the rounds are headstamped “7.92 MM 44”

The box has some Hebrew words I have never seen on other Israeli 7.92mm boxes but I don’t have a clue to what they mean. jonnyc can you help with a translation?

Does anyone know why Israel would be packing 7.92mm ammo as late as 1974 and why they would be using the Canadian made ammo with the clandestine headstamps? (John, do you know?)


#2

Phil - this is a total surprise to me. I guess I never even saw the contents of this box. Rather embarrassing. That’s why I usually open full boxes, a practice much criticized. You simply never know what you are actually going to find in a sealed box! Incredible. Are all the cartridges in it like that? I wonder if it was an empty box that someone filled? Still, I guess not, becuase you said it was sealed. Unfortunately, I cannot translate the label, but I am sure our friend Jon will for us.

Thos Canadian headstamps, in both 9mm and 7.9, have showed up all over the world. Sometimes not in “friendly hands” either. One of my early 9 mm rounds came from South America, and was found in the inventory of a group of Tupomaros.

They are still headstamps argued over by collectors, and have received much coverage on the IAA Forum, although don’t recall if any of it was on the “new” Forum.

John Moss


#3

Phil

Interesting.

Maybe the box and label are clandestine as well?

It looks like we will have to emulate John and open all of our sealed boxes. ;)

Does anyone know of other legit boxes that contained the 7.92 cartridges?

Ray


#4

John
I am 99.9% sure that the box was unopened and yes, all 20 rounds have the same headstamp.

Ray
Maybe a translation will shed some light (hopefully!)


#5

The only legitimate boxes I have seen for the clandestine Canadian 7.92mm ammo (I don’t have one to scan) are completely unmarked with the rounds packed loose in layers. If I remember correctly there was 42 or some other odd number of rounds per box.


#6

Very interesting!
Nothing interesting or odd with the first two lines. After that:

LOT: (SH10-72/52)
“PREFERRED USE” (use first)
NOT FOR USE AFTER MAY 1974

From the Lot info, my “educated” guess is that they were captured, sometime post-1952, were believed to have been manufactured in 1952 (original box data?), repacked in 1972, and relegated for training use.
Then again, I could be completely wrong.


#7

jonnyc
Thanks so much for the translation. I didn’t know Israel still had any 7.92mm weapons on hand in the early 1970’s. I think 1957 is the last year I have with an Israeli headstamp.


#8

THis is an interestiong turn in the “7,92 MM 44” story.

BY 1974, Israel was no longer manufacturing 7,92 ammo, having gone over to 7,62 Nato almost completely. It was, however, still using up stocks of older IMI 7,92 and European made 7,9mm Ammo, and occasionally getting FNM of Portugal to make ammo for them, and Packed into Normal Israeli marked crates and Packets.( FNM-Israeli Labelled has shown up on another Board in the Ammo section)

The translation of the Label here will be of great help.

Question/proposition: Could the Israelis have acquired ( by whatever means) a large quantity of this “MM” marked 7,9 ammo and repacked it themselves, for internal Use (the Kibbutz were still equipped with 7,9 for the most part back in the 1970s). Interarms was pretty active internationally at the time ( early 70s) having reduced outlets in the USA due to GCA68 for Milsurp equipment etc, and IA was a known “dealer” in ex-clandestine ammo also ( of CIA and other origin)

Going on the design of the original 7,9 and 7,62 IMI packets, the Label layout seems normal Israeli info, but the Packet assembly with what seems a seal of tape is not a common feature of Israeli packets…the Tape seems to hide a piece of string…a “rip here to open” feature?" I have not seen this before on Israeli packets.

Any Hebrew readers out there for a translation???

Not making any definite statements here, but deductions and suppositions based on “Forensic” style enquiry.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

Doc,

I have seen Israeli 7.62mm 20-round cartons which had a string rip open facility, not unlike this one.

gravelbelly


#10

Uh…Doc…look about 2 posts above yours…I did translate it.

Looking at the label again, the last 2 letters (far left) of the first line: nun (N) and dalet (D). I don’t recall ever seeing that notation on an Israeli label before! I do not know what it could mean.


#11

MY question regarding Translation was typed before the Translation had appeared, but by the time I pressed “Send” the Posting with the translation had appeared.

Another suggestion: the “72/52” would be Lot number 52 of 1972 (when it was re-packed) and the reference to “Not use after (19) 74” could refer to it being 30 years since Manufacture ( “44”). Some countries do have “Use by” dates for ammo as well (most use the “Rule of Fives” ( ie by 15 years old it is sent to surplus or destroyed).

Maybe the “N” and “D” could shed some light on the Label…

regards,
Doc AV


#12

I suspect that these cartridges were supplied by the US stocks and shipped to Israel in 1972. This makes sense since the US was supplying lots of military equipment to Isreal in this period of tensions that led to the 1973 War. This ammo was likely in unmarked boxes and was repacked in Isreal. The box is important because the 1952 date of manufacture is consistent with the dates I had for this ammunition from other sources. I have been told on pretty good authority that this ammunition was produced at Dominion beginning in 1948. I have reason to believe that the dates are as follows:

40 = 1948
41 = 1948
42 = 1950
43 = 1951
44 = 1952
45 = 1953 and later (apparently the “45” date was used for a number of years.

The data on this box is the first hard evidence I have seen that would confirm these dates. This ammunition was definitely not made in 1944.

Many thanks to all concerned.

Cheers,

Lew


#13

Two things, Lew. First, not sure I would call it “hard evidence”, since we can’t be sure where that 72/52 came from. My idea was only a guess. Second, I’m also not sure how much US materiel was actually going directly to Israel in 1972, especially something with as little need as 7.92 ammo. I don’t believe the spigots really opened 'til October of '73.


#14

It might not be of any help but Israel was making charger clips marked for 7,92/7,62 as late as 1966, the earliest I’ve seen was 1958.

Happy collecting, Peter


#15

jonnyc, I agree that in Oct 1973 the nature of the support changed totally. I was working at Hq Military Airlift Command at the time. We were shipping things from front line US military units directly to Israel. We were not only picking up material from storage areas, but most of our flights were going directly to active duty military units. Still, there was considerable transfer to Israel during the run-up to the 1973 war.

In the early 1970s, perhaps earlier, much of the Dominion made ammunition of this type was being turned over to the DOD “single manager for munitions”. In 1978, I was told that all the 9mmP in single manager stocks in the mid-70s was this Dominion ammunition dated “45”. By the early 70s, the requirement of the people holding the stock had seen the requirement move from 7.92 to 7.62x39. I suspect the ammo here is part of an effort to clear out stocks. The people who had this ammo prior to the early 70s, are unlikely to have provided it to any of the countries that Israel may have captured it from with the possible exception of Jordan, and that would have been in 1967, five years before this ammunition was apparently packed.

I agree that calling this “hard evidence” is an overstatement. By “hard” I simply meant that we finally had a printed date on something that was associated with this ammunition.

Of course the “52” could be a lot number as Doc AV suggests. My boxes from 67 and earlier and some from 79 and later use a Lot#/year format. My boxes from 74 through 78 use Lot# - year.

I don’t have any repack labels to compare it to!!!

Does anyone have some Israeli repack labels that might give us a hint if the “52” is a year or a lot???

Not sure what a “lot” would mean on repacked ammo, it wouldn’t be the loading lot which is what is usually indicated on the box labels.

Cheers,

Lew


#16

Lew
I don’t know if this helps or not.
I did a search for a post I made before the crash. Jonnyc’s translation survived but the picture of the repacked box didn’t, so I am reposting it

[i]jonnyc’s reply:
“Well, it is AP, but as you said, Czech-made.
The left label says:
20 CARTRIDGE

7,92 M"M // G

Z LOT: 209/48

ONLY FOR RIFLES

ARMOR PIERCING

The right label says:
20 CARTRIDGE 7,92 M"M // G

CHA"SH (the abbreviation for Choder Shirion/Armor Piercing)

Z LOT: 174-57/48

The “CH” in the 2 words above is pronounced with a throat-clearing sound (like with Jalapeño), not like the “CH” in Charles.”[/i]