Odd primer crimp on 7.63 Mauser


#1

While looking at a picture of a box that was described as mixed 7.63 Mauser, I was intrigued by the two crimps securing the primers on three of the cartridges, as seen in the top left portion of the picture. One of them has what appears to be a ring crimp in addition to the two ‘punch’ crimps. The two without the ring look Japanese to me. Its also highly possible that not all of the cartridges are 7.63 Mauser. Is anyone familiar with these two punch primer crimps on pistol ammunition? Also, the poor quality of the photo makes it impossible to determine if there is a headstamp on these - does anyone know the headstamps on these, if any?


#2

The ones with two opposing stake crimps have always been ID’d to me as a WWI Italian naval contract. The one with the ring and stakes I’m not sure about. I’ve heard Russian, Japanese, Italian, etc. I would like to get a definite on it.


#3

I would not classify either of the 7.63 mm Mauser rounds with the heavy, dual square primer crimps, one with a ring and one without, as Japanese. Both types have been found in Italy, but that alone doesn’t guarantee Italian manufacture either.

They are not Japanese. The Japanese 7.63 mm Mauser (and 7.65 mm Parabellum) have a distinctly Japanese look to them when viewing the head. The primers are domed brass cups seated deeply in the head; that is, the highest point of the cup is slightly below the case head. There is no visible primer crimp of any type on either caliber. Oddly for Japanese rounds, the bullets are CNCS (magnetic) FMJ RN. They are held in place by the three stab-type crimps common to Japanese Pistol ammunition. The cases are brass, of course.

Once seen, the Japanese ones are hard to miss when encountered, which unfortunately, is almost never.

I have classified the one with the two square primer crimps as being of Italian manufacture almost solely on anecdotal advice from other knowledgable collectors. I am not totally confident with that type of identification, though. Box labels are best, or factory drawings showing the features in question. I have still left the one with the two crimps and the rings shown as “unknown manufacturer.”


#4

Maybe this can help you

forum.worldwar.it/Forum/viewtopi … =3&t=17924


#5

John, could you please post pics of the rounds you are sure are Japanese?
Thanks.


#6

Thanks, all. Should I be fortunate to obtain this box of mixed cartridges, I’ll provide better pics. Its these mysteries that provide the most enjoyment in this hobby.


#7

Pivi - While some great stuff on the .30 Mauser - especially that beautiful box label - it is no help at all to the question at hand. It doesn’t discuss the unheadstamped rounds at all. Neither did any of my correspondence from Alessio Grimaldi. I have not yet searched my 7.63 mm Mauser file, but don’t recall anything helpful in it about these rounds. Still, thanks for the link. The box picture and the picture of the variants of the Fiocchi headstamp are very helpful to my study of auto pistol ammo. I think I only have one of the Fiocchi 1916 rounds.

Jon - I will try, but I am just not sure that the scanner will do a good job on them. Maybe when I get my Nikon set up properly for cartridge photography in the next few months I will go crazy and photographs lots of interesting rounds.

At any rate, I will give it a try. If they turn out, I will have Joe post them for me, if he is still up to it for the new Forum. (Yes Ron, I know I should do it, but even your very helpful instructions to me personally were over my head. It would be impossible to over-estimate my stupidity when it comes to computers, a great part of which is attitude causing mental blocks, of which I am fully aware. It is just the way it is. I haven’t even figured out the automatic signature for replies yet. I can read about ten words of computer directions and my mind goes blank and my eyes gloss over and stop seeing what is written. It comes from my abject hatred of computers and the power they have given to the wrong people to interfere in people’s lives. I know they do a lot of good in some fields, but I have not yet concluded that it is worth it).

John Moss


#8

7.65 mm Parabellum and 7.63 mm Mauser cartridges of Japanese manufacture. Bullets are CNCS. Note stab neck crimps which, unfortunately, are not all that unusual on these calibers from countries other than Japan.

7.65 mm Parabellum and 7.63 mm Mauser Japanese cartridge heads. Unfortunately, in our opinion, the photo does not show the Japanese “Look” nearly so much as do the actual cartridges. Their is not question that these two rounds are Japanese, however, so the pictures are presented for whatever little identification help they can give. The entire “look” spoken of has to do with the primers more than any other feature.

We hope these pictures are of some help and interest, but wish they better illustrated what we would have liked to have shown clearly.

Collection of John Moss


Un-headstamped 7,63mm Mauser ID?
#9

I have a similar cartridge (CN) but I do not manage to classify her 7.62x25 Tokarev or 7.63x25 Mauser?


#10

Your cartridge is a 7.63 mm Mauser round, possibly made in Italy. It is the cartridge the question about which began this thread. Scroll up to the beginning of the thread.


#11

I received the box of mixed 7.63 Mauser cartridges; there were several of those with the two square primer crimps, which are just like the cartridge that pierrejean posted. Note also the punch crimps in the neck. The rest of the cartridges included the one with the combination ring crimp and two square primer crimps, quite a few F N * headstamps, and DWM K 403 K headstamps. The box itself was made by Fiocchi, and has ‘ISRAEL’ stamped on the bottom. Is it possible this indicates the box was imported into the US from Israel??

I am away from home for a week, and can’t post any pictures at this time.


#12

Here’s the picture of the box, as well examples of each of the cartridges that were in the box; the 3rd cartridge is headstamped DWM K 403 K and the 5th cartridge is a Tokarev.


#13

The 11 84 Tokarev was in the box???


#14

jonnyc,
This was a box of mixed headstamps, probably none of which were original to the box, so it could have had pretty much anything that would have fit in it.


#15

I pulled the bullets from two of the unidentified cartridges and found them to be matching. The bases of the bullets are hollow, with the skirt of the metal jacket extended 2mm below the flat base of the lead core. The assembled cartridge and bullet weights were 160.6/83.7 grains for the cartridge without the ringed primer crimp and 161.1/84.1 grains for the cartridge with the ringed primer crimp. The powder in both was square flakes.


#16

Can I throw another unmarked 7.63mm Mauser into the melting pot on the off-chance that somebody, somewhere will know exactly who made it?
There is no crimping to the primer or the bullet and the bullet is not magnetic. I would describe the domed primer as deep seated - similar to the Japanese rounds John refers to - and I have tried to illustrate this in my pictures.

Jim


#17

Jim - your round is another of the unverified, unheadstamped 7.63 Mauser rounds. It looks Italian or Belgian to me, but admittedly, most of the Italian rounds with no headstamp that are verified from a specific box type has the three-stab neck crimp. Yours doesn’t appear to have that.

It is not Japanese, which although that is not the case with Japanese pistol ammo other than 763 mm Mauser and 7.65 mm Parabellum, have magnetic bullets. They also have a three-stab bullet crimp on the necks.

I have almost a dozen un headstamped 7.63 mm Mauser rounds in my collection, all plainly different from each other, and not one of them positively identified. At this stage, we probably will never know who made even a fraction of them, much less all of them.

John Moss


#18

It was a long shot John but it was worth asking just in case. Thank you for the reply.
Jim


#19

There are also some Spanish unheadstamped examples. I’ll check your pic against my collection.


#20

Yes please Jon, thank you.