Old 9x23 Spanish box

Hello all of you.
Here i show you one old 9x23 Spanish box.
Is first time i found one of this.


20190730_161817 20190730_161801 20190730_161810

Pedro.

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Pedro - great box! Aside from boxes marked specifically for the Campo Giro Pistol, I have not encountered any boxes anywhere near this old, although older Largo cartridges are not uncommon even in the U.S.

Thanks for posting!!! I will definitely save this one for my files. :-)

John Moss

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Detail : polvora en lams ( lamellas,
Sheets, as in flakes)
Filiacion ( associated subsidiary plant) #41
Ton #8 (lot or type #8)
Carga 0.40 gramos==6.72 grains

Cases made, and assembled both in Nov. 1925.

Very nice packet, despite age.

Doc AV

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An interesting box Pedro, I don’t know when that label began to be used, possibly in 1924 or 1925 after the adoption of the Astra 400 Md. 1921. In 1919 boxes were still produced for “Campogiro Mod. 1903” using powder Filiación-41.
IMG_20190731_211733~2

In 1923 the label indicating “For CAMPOGIRO pistol 9 m/m MODEL 1913-16” was used glued over boxes for Campogiro Mod. 1913

We can know from the boxes that I show, that in 1930 the new Filiación-50 powder was tested, which seems did not work well because in July 1931 the Filiación-41 was used again. In this 1931 box we can also observe that the royal crown has been removed in the label due to the proclamation of the Republic in Spain on April 14.
IMG_20190731_191441~2

I have also a nice 1910 box for Bergmann 9mm Pistol. Inside there are cartridges with two different bullet profile and the clip used has’t marks. The other photo shows an older box from 1909 with cartridges loaded with Granada Xpl. powder, It´’s no longer in my collection and I don’t remember the clip marks but I think it was AEP or K.



Doc, Filiación is the powder type or model not the plant. Ton stand for Tonelada, 1000Kg, in that era they used Tonelada as powder lot unit.

Would not ton and tonelada indicate the operating pressure to which the ammunition was loaded? Jack (upon reflection I see that the weight does equate to a powder lot and would delete my post if I knew how)

BPatrone,

Beautiful 9 mm Largo boxes!!! Thank you for posting.

I have two identical boxes for the 9 mm Largo labeled specifically for the Campo Giro pistols, much like your first shown one. Both were originally marked only for the Modelo 1913, but one of them was later corrected to reflect both the Modelos 1913 and the 1916. Unfortunately, both were received empty, but I feel confident that they had held cartridges with the “P” headstamp, along with the date, on the headstamp.

Years ago, I had both types in a collection of auto pistols.

Interesting guns. Only auto pistol, though, that once disassembled, I could not put it back together. A friend, also with one of them, had to do it for me.

Again, thank you for posting.

John Moss

Bpatrone, thankyou for that clarification. Filiacion still means
Literally, “affiliation or Son of” ( latin filius, son), but here means
Subsidiary to the main Arsenal…I agree that #41 is the powder type.
As to Tonelada, one ton ( metric or British?) Seems a reasonable lot size for powder.
Overall, a very good explanation of 9x23 Largo packets and manufacture.
Doc AV

Very thanks all for your posts.
BPatrone you have nice boxes and all rare to found or see. The box with Spanish flag i have never seen.

Pedro

You are right Doc, “Filiación” is the relatiónship between father and son, and also the Set of personal data of an individual managed by the public administration o Police. In the spanish army the powder FILIACION is its set of technical data regardless of its manufacturer, so, with the FILIACION number we know wich model or kind of powder is.


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Thanks a lot for the explanation as well as the propellant table.

Dear colleagues I hope everyone is well and safe from infections.

I have been lucky to find a identical box to mine in a friend’s collection. This box was complete and contained two AEP clips with twelve CNCS RN cartridges.

So it looks like my previously shown box contained mixed original CNCS RN cartridges and the other clip with pointed GMCN cartridges not original from this box.

In this six pointed rounds I find two groups about the head size, nº 1 and 2 with 9.84mm and nº 3 to 6 with 9.75mm.

I think there may be two possibilities about the pointed cartridges origin. They could be republican war production (1936-39), although these pointed bullets are not found in cartridges recognized as republican production. See nº 8 to 11.

The other possibility is that they come from the first Xpl. batch manufactured in 1908 at the Pirotecnia de Sevilla. In the attached document, it explains that this1908 batch gave size and decapsulation problems. The Experiences Commission proposed and tested to give three hits crimping in the capsule to avoid it. The Seville Pirotecnia opposed this solution and solved all the problems of the experimental batch in 1909, with the first definitive model lot, which corresponds to the 1909 box previously shown.

Any opinion to help me identify it correctly??