Old German cases ID


#1

Hello, I need help with this cases:

11,15x65R - H.UTENDOERFFER NUERNBERG
(right is M.71)

Similar is in H.Utendorffer catalog for 1908, but any description.


#2

This does look like the 11.5x65R Ma (MB132) with the low shoulder and that case is known with the early Utendoerffer hs you show (as well as Egestorff).

To be sure, can you provide the case dimensions - inner and outer case mouth diameters would be great.


#3

What was that “Ma (MB132)”, any other names ? How called a weapon using this ammunition ?

I was found another one, it has more accurate dimensions:


#4

Those dimensions confirm this as the 11.5x65R M Target or ‘Schützen’ in German - used for Target Shooting which was very popular in Germany c18980’s till 1900’s.

MB132 is the code used in the “European Sporting Cartridges” book by W.B.Dixon fwhere “MB” is used to represent all the 11mm Mauser based cartridges (see notes below).

Here are the notes on MB123 this from my database:
[i]This rare M cartridge is shown in the c1900 RWS/Utendoerffer catalog with the comment “mit Langer Kröpfung”, meaning “with longer neck”. This case is actually an extended neck version of the 11.5x50R Werder (MB100) with the same very slight “a” type shoulder (see images). Utendoerffer, Egestorff and no hs examples are known to exist. It would not be easy to fake this case type as it could only be proiduced from 65mm or longer cases which are all scarce in their own right.

Note that in the catalog of c1900, the 11,5x65R and 11.5x70R (MB135) are shown as ‘MB’ sorts. Having never been produced in light ‘B’ case construction, these cases should more correctly be designated ‘M’. This view is supported by evidence of the RWS drawing M146a where the designation M70/11,5 was used.

This was not shown in the Utendoerffer c1884 but Utendoerffer examples with the older serif style lettering which I would have thought was pre 1884, so when this was introduced is a bit of a mystery.

There is a 12x66R straight case similar to this case type with a “LORENZ + KARLSRUHE +” hs. This may have been an unfinished 11.5x65R, a Lorenz blank, a dummy case, a 12.5x60R Shot loading (MB130) with a rosette crimp straightened or even another long case altogether.[/i]

“M” is the Utendoerffer case type for a case based on the 11mm Mauser when there was no “Light construction” case predecessor based on the Bavarian Werder (“B” type case). If there was a B version before it it would be known as an “MB” case.

Here are some updated notes on the Utendoerffer Case Type Designations:

[i]In 1869 (?) H.Utendoerffer produced the first 11.5x50R cases for the M69
Bavarian Werder and shortly after that also produced 10.5x38R Vetterli,
9.75x40.5R Wanzel, 11.15x42R M67 Austrian Werndl and 11.15x60R M71
Mauser cases. Being typically German, he obviously wanted to be able to
classify these case types.

An Utendoerffer 1875 letter shows that by then there were already 24
sporting case types introduced and that Utendoerffer had already established
the expression “B” to represent the Werder case type having a 13.15mm base
diameter and being constructed from rolling/pressing techniques (ie 'Leicht’
or ‘Light’ construction) with the “B” referring to “Bavarian”.
Progressively, new cases were given new case type designations (in Capital
Letters). In addition Utendoerffer also used small letters to indicate
similar case/shoulder shape designations (see Utendoerffer Case Shape
Designations).

The combination of both of these codes plus the calibre and case length
would uniquely identify each case much like Lorenz, Roth or Egestorff case
numbers did. To the best knowledge available today, the major types were (in
approximate order of introduction):

Type Repesents head diam Construction Notes


B Bavarian 13.15mm Light First type = ‘a’ shoulder

MB Massiv Bavarian 13.0mm Solid head version of ‘B’

S Swiss 13.6mm Light Vetterli type = “b” shoulder

MS Massiv Swiss 13.6mm Solid head version of “S”

A Austrian 13.2mm Light Werndl type = ‘c’ shoulder
(Autriche) 12.5mm Light 9.75x40.5R Wänzel = ‘f’ shoulder
(mistakenly first given ‘b’ shoulder)

MOe Massiv Oesterreich 12.5mm Solid 9.75x40.5R Wanzel = ‘f’ shoulder
(Austrian) 13.6mm Solid 11.15x42R Werndl = ‘c’ shoulder
(ex - ‘A’) 14.0mm Solid 10.5x42R (werndl based ?)

K Knecht 13.6mm Solid Knecht = ‘d’ shoulder

M Mauser? 13.0mm Solid Mauser = ‘m’ shoulder

******************** Other newer types
T Tesching 11.2mm all ‘d’ shoulders

RP unknown 11.0mm all Tesching with ‘b’ shoulders

P Pistole ? 9.65mm Tesching/Pistol

Z Zimmer 8.15mm Tesching, ‘d’ and ‘k’ cases

H Hagen variety for Hagen rather than a case type

La Larsen variety for Larsen rather than a case type

LV Larsen Vaabenforretning for Larsen rather than a case type

D.R. Danish Remington 12.85mm

OBDR ??

G Garten 10.2mm GartenGewehr = Rook Rifle
G Gründig 12.5mm

F Frohn 10.8mm

LK Lancaster-Kugel 12.0mm 36g Shot case type

V Vetterli (?) 14.4mm 32g Shot case type


In addition there were a number of other designations for other individual
and small groups of cartridges :

E (Eley), EB (Eley Bros), F.H. (Flat Hagen cases), FK (Flat Knecht cases),
H.M. (Henry Martini rather than Martini-Henry), CM (?), D (Denmark), KI.A.
(?), MRR (Massive Reichs Revolver), O.R. (Officers Revolver), P (Portugal),
R (Revolver), REB (??), RN (Revolver ?), RR (Reichs Revolver - light
construction), S.R. (Spanish Remington), W.R. (Winchester Repeater).[/i]

The “a” is the Utendoerffer case shape - particularly around the shoulder:
Here are some updated notes on the Utendoerffer Case Shape Designations:

[i]Every necked case type listed in Utendoerffer catalogs (eg MB, MS , K, MOe
etc) has a small letter (ie lowercase eg. ‘MB 47/9.5 b’) code has now been understood. As straight cases are never given these codes, these letters appear to relate to neck position/shape especially when cases of the same length and code generally have the neck in the same position. The recently discovered 1877 Utendoerffer catalog now confirms that these are “Kröpfung” (neckform) which are shoulder/neck shapes

It appears that, certainly initially, the letters were allocated alphabetically
commencing with “a” for the M69 Bavarian Werder (the first Utendoerffer CF
Metallic case).

The interpretations of this codes (as detailed in Eurpean Sporting Cartridges Vol1 and elaborated on in Heinz Helds “RWS-Patronen-Sammelsurium”) are described below:

a Associated with Bavarian Werder (First type). Short shoulder width @ c3.5mm for 11.5mm cases. Generally has third shortest neck length c10-12mm.

b This is the commonest case type and has the lowest shoulder. It was the second type introduced and is associated with the Swiss Vetterli case type. It has a gradually curved (ie not linear) shoulder curving for c15mm, depending on the calibre. First used for sporting purposes with the 9.5x47R Bb (later MBb) c1874. Used also by ‘R.P.’ and ‘MS’ sporting case types.

c Highest shoulder type: Third type, associated with the 11.2x42R Austrian Werndl (A81)- seem to stay in scale and only 6 cases listed. Neck length c6mm for 47mm case.

d Second highest shoulder type: Fouth Type, associated with the Swiss Knecht case which has a shoulder always starting at 27mm above the base.- seems to stay in scale with c8-10mm neck length. Also used in ‘Z’ and ‘T’ tesching types.

********Heinz Held on the ‘d’ shape
"The shoulder designation ‘d’ of the 4x17R dZ is used starting from the 10,5x46,5R dM. The use of this (designation) for so different (?) and large differences of calibers is quite unusual, but the following is more curious: There are 30 pieces with truncated cone formed shoulders and for actually two - 8x36R dT and 9x36R by Utendoerffer and Egestorff - one used a similar curved shoulder to the ‘f’ shoulder . The question arises whether with the allocation of these 4 similar is reasonably justified, or whether in this case an indeterminable and uncorrected error is present here. The ‘d’ shoulder type is associated with the 10,4x38R Swiss Peabody Rimfire and the 10,4x38R dK Centerfire version. "


e Associated with 52mm cases (the “Einheitshulse” type ??) and also the 10.8x47e (??). Which all have the shoulder at c33mm above the base with approx 15mm necks.

F Rare - only 9.75x46.5f, 9.75x42f, 10.75x46.5R MB types and 9.75x40.5R f (Moe type ) - shape, close to “b” type.

G Rare - only 9x35g (lowest shoulder of 35mm cases) - shape close to "b"
type.

K Conical type (“k” = Konical ?) on Z Tesching conical case types - not
strictly necked but certainly not straight.

M Confirmed as being the shape originating with the 11.15x60R Mauser (“m” = Mauser ) shoulder shape. Commonly used on most military calibres

b/a Uncommon and only applies to 9.5mm calibres (9.5x42b/a, 9.5x47b/a,
9.5x51b/a, 9.5x56b/a) -still has the shape of the “b” but some calibres
don’t appear to have a “b” equivalent (ie. 9.5x51b/a, 9.5x56b/a).

d/a Rare (9.5x42d/a only) modification (??) of “d” type - still has the
shape of the “d”.[/i]

Hope this answers your questions.


#5

Wow.


#6

Very interesting informations, thank you very much WBD !!!.

Ok… the second one:
~10x35R - L II 1880


#7

This Lorenz case is a bit harder to identify. It’s shape does not seem to match any of the MB type cases (13mm base/15mm Rim) but looks more like a MOe type case (12.5mm base/14.5mm rim).

There is a 9.7x34.5R MB Austrian Target (MB12) which a short neck but the shape isn’t correct. Your case looks unusual around the shoulder - maybe it was fired in the wrong chamber ?

It looks more like the 9.5x36R Werndl (A6 : aka 9.5x36R MOe) but the case on that is longer more like 35.5mm.

Firstly can you please measure the rim and base diameters as accurately as possible just to be sure what case type it is.

Thanks


#8

accurate dimensions


#9

So those dimensions fairly conclusively show it is an MB type and unless the case mouth was expanded by being firing in a too large chamber, then it should have a 9.5-9.8mm bullet diameter.

Here are the case drawings of 35mm MB case types in Lorenz catalogs:

As you can see your case profile doesn’t really match any of them. It also could be that this is an Lorenz case type is a unknown copy of an Utendoerffer cases - these are shown below:

Some of these are more similar to yours but the fact that your case looks wrong around the shoulder (fired in the wrong chamber ?) just makes it harder to identify and I don’t believe that the shape of the shoulder is correct. The neck length looks likely to be more like 7-8mm and that combined with a shoulder length of c23mm means it could be MB10 but this is just speculation.

I know of about 60 MB sporting cases with that “L XX XXXX” Lorenz military style hs but none with the "L II 1880 " hs.

So a bit of a mystery but certainly a rare case - pity it wasn’t original.


#10

Is that posible that was MB14 and narrower rim was created by the reloading press ?
On the bottom is a trace after primer removal which shows the preparation for reuse.

Calculating with proportions internal diameter for wider rim (fi 11mm) is ~10,36mm. In this case, shape and dimentions are similar to MB14.


#11

I have had a chance to study the image of this case and while I am not sure what you mean by the ‘rim’ (I suspect you refer to the case mouth diameters ?) it is possible that this case was originally a 10.25x35R. If so then the Lorenz MB15 is probably more likely.

However if you assume that this case was modified by a reloading press and possibly other case shape altering equipment, as well as the possibility it was fired in the wrong chamber then it could have originated as any of the Lorenz MB7-MB19.

Nothing can be known for sure but a very scarce case to have for any of these possibilities.


#12

And the last question about 11,5x50R Werder’s.

There are 8 cases with different length:

  1. lg. 49,7mm (<-O- ST. -O-> 1882)
  2. lg. 49,5mm (LORENZ * KARLSRUHE *)
  3. lg. 49,4mm (LORENZ * KARLSRUHE *)
  4. lg. 49,4mm (G.EGESTORFF * LINDEN *)
  5. lg. 49,5mm (.N.v.DREYSE SOMMERDA.)
  6. lg. 48,7mm (.N.v.DREYSE SOMMERDA.)
  7. lg. 48,6mm (.N.v.DREYSE SOMMERDA.)
  8. lg. 48,5mm (* RM * S)

Neck diameters: int. 11,4mm, ext. 12mm
Is that all 11,5x50R Werder ?

That is comparison length two Dreyse cases:

The same manufacturer but different length.


#13

The first five all appear to be the more common 11.5x50R Werder Target Long Neck type (MB100).

Apart from this case type, there is also a shorter neck version 11.5x50R Werder Target Short Neck (MB101) and a related Austrian 11.3x48R MB Austrian (MB140) which has the shoulder position of the MB100 but the shorter neck of MB101 which gives it a c1.5mm shorter case length - remember these cases were produced well before normalisation and there is quite a variety in case length etc.

Factory production of the shorter MB140 are only confirmed by G.Roth but similar cases are known with Egestorf (see http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11713&p=83351#p83351) and Utendoerffer hs. Your last three look like attempts to make this case type from Dreyse and RM-S cases. Or, they could just be excessively trimmed when reused ?

This does seem confusing which is typical for these old MB case and thanks for sharing this information.


#14

Thank you very much WBD for a lot of interesting informations !!!

Headstamps for posterity:

Happy New Year !
Regards. Ave