Old tesching ctges (quatro)

I would like an identification of these ctges

All of these ctges have a raised base

From left to right :

  1. Hstp Keller 1887
    Rim diam : 14.85
    base diam : 13.05
    neck diam : 10.65
    cl : 51.70
    bull diam 10.15

  2. Hstp H Utentendoerffer Nurnberg (raised)
    Rim diam : 14.90
    base diam : 13.05
    neck diam 10.70
    cl : 51.75
    bull diam 10

They look to be the same caliber.
What are they ???


These are very similar but generally regarded as non interchangeable:

#1 is I believe the 10x51R Austrian MB as per the Roth example in an earlier post today. This is equivalent to the Lorenz version of the 10x52R (MB111). Keller originally listed this as 10x52R (case #522) and then later Hirtenberger listed the same case number as 10x51R.

#2 is the Utendoerffer equivalent - 10x52R Utendoerffer MB Target (MB110)

Thanks !
Give me time to analyze all that.
I’ll come back

hello Brad,
why d you say the 10x51R Austrian MB (which has a 50 mm case length) is equivalent to the 10x52R (MB111) or the 10x52R Utendoerffer MB Target (MB110) which both have a 52 mm ase length ??


JP - I thought you wrote that the Keller had a 51.7mm case length ?

The Roth version in the earlier post you listed as 50.8mm. Even as I stated Keller/Hirtenberger changed the designation over time.

Both German and Austrian versions of their 10x51-52mm MB cases vary considerably in case length - from 50.8 to 52.11 mm in the examples I am aware of. I think it can be a mistake to think that because two old MB target cartridges vary in case lengths by 1mm that they necessarily are different calibres - the case length does not appear to be absolutely vital in these old chambers. You could double the number of MB cartridges (there are already 154 that I am aware of) if you used that principle. The company tolerances from company to company seem to have varied considerably. Even within the same company there are significant changes in dimensions, although there must have been many issues with chambering different manufacturers products c1975-1900.

thank you!!