Old Winchester sub-machine ammo 9mm - need info...(pic)


#1

Howdy, can anyone educate me about this ammo? Approximate age, agency of intended use, etc. Thanks!

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#2

This is WW2 period contract ammunition for Great Britain. Millions of rounds were supplied by Winchester (and Western)for use in Sten and Lanchester SMGs.

Winchester also supplied Britain with 9mm Proof rounds with tinned cases during this period.

Regards
TonyE


#3

[quote=“TonyE”]This is WW2 period contract ammunition for Great Britain. Millions of rounds were supplied by Winchester (and Western)for use in Sten and Lanchester SMGs.

Winchester also supplied Britain with 9mm Proof rounds with tinned cases during this period.

Regards
TonyE[/quote]

And dummies, blind primer pocket and blackened all over.

gravelbelly


#4

stiab- This ammo is in the period 1946-1955 also used by the Netherlands Navy for the UD42, Owen and Lanchester sub machine gun.

Best regards, Rob


#5

[quote=“gravelbelly”]
And dummies, blind primer pocket and blackened all over.

gravelbelly[/quote]

Do we accept posts from louche retirees lounging by the pool of their sun baked Portuguese villa whist the rest of us have to work for a living?

All the best Dave,
TonyE


#6

Hey, I’m retired. How come I don’t get to sit around and admire the Portuguese landscape? Anything would beat San Francisco.

Regarding the boxes shown, I don’t think any of these are from the post-war period, that is, regarding manufacture. I have no doubt that it was used by many European countries after the war. It was supplied in the same style of box - white with black printing - but square boxes for 64 rounds, as well. I have one of these marked “Denmark.” Probably supplied to Denmark after WWII by England, or perhaps even dropped into Denmark in quantity during the war, for partisan groups such as Holgar Dansk. Not sure when the danes got it, but they obviously ended up selling enough of it that in the formal importation, the importer stamped the boxes Denmark. We sold some of this ammo in the early 60s, as I recall, right after I started at the store, and that’s where my box come from.

To summarize, it is unquestionable that this ammo was in use in many places after WWII, but I believe packaged like this, it was manufactured during the war, from 1942 to 1945. In fact, most of the boxes I have seen have been dated “1942,” so I really am not sure how long manufacture continued during the war. Western had similar contracts, boxed similarly, some in English language boxes, but also in boxes labeled in Chinese. They have been shown on this Forum.


#7

Thanks for the information. The box pictured has no printing that you cannot see in the pic, and the rounds are not headstamped with a date. Your replies were so quick and thorough that I will post some more old stuff soon. Thanks again!


#8

[quote=“TonyE”][quote=“gravelbelly”]
And dummies, blind primer pocket and blackened all over.

gravelbelly[/quote]

Do we accept posts from louche retirees lounging by the pool of their sun baked Portuguese villa whist the rest of us have to work for a living?

All the best Dave,
TonyE[/quote]

Hello Tony,

What about when it rains, like it did here for a day a couple of months ago? You wage slaves can go to work to get out of it. I have to sit drinking wine looking at the darned rain. And don’t forget holidays and weekends, we retirees don’t get those anymore. I can’t even remember what day of the week it is but that could be the wine.

gravelbelly


#9

Australia was also a big buyer of this ammo, for the Owen and Austen SMGs from 1942 to 1945; the Australian home production of 9mm began in late 1943 (the Mark Iz, a poor and underpowered copy of the Winchester round…quickly followed by the Mark IIz, more like the German cartridge).

Winchester did continue making this style of ammo and boxes well into the 1950s (have seen 1950s delivery Indonesian in Winchester crates…the old embossed label type, also with .45 ACP, 7,92 and .303…all made for Indonesia by Winchester, in their familiar “White Box” export style.
Indonesian contract ammo is all “commercial” style WRA headstamps…no date (WRA and calibre markings only)…“Indonesia” exists only from 1949.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#10

Yes, you are of course correct about “white box” ammo. I have many samples of the boxes myself. I shoot .303 ammo that was produced for Ireland by Winchester and delivered in white boxes. I bought it along with a brand new, still in the wrapper No. 4 Mark II. They came from Ireland, and at one time, we had up to four or five with consecutive serial numbers in our store. Probably should have bought a pair. Well, I wasn’t collecting Enfields. Being a shooter, of course, I unwrapped the gun, cleaned it and shot it. I prefer my No. I Mark III made at Lithgow, by the way.

I should have made my answer clearer. I have not seen the exact boxes as shown with any date after 1945. They may exist also, they simply have not turned up here. However, as mentioned by Doc Av, and above, I have many examples of white box ammo in 9mm with other labels, not just from Winchester/Western, but also from Speer, Federal, etc. Some were for other countries or our own military (not standard issue), some for police, and others simply for commercial sales.

I also have boxes similar to the 9mm shown, but in .45, including a rather scarce 42-round square box. I am sure I have pictured those on this forum before.


#11

Interesting to read that Indonesia (the republic was founded in 1949 after the Dutch Colonial time ended) followed the Dutch (KNIL) habits and ordered their ammunition from the same source as the Dutch KNIL did after 1940.

I suspect that the Winchester submachine gun ammo killed a lot of Dutch KNIL lugers during those days.


#12

DocAV

[quote]Winchester did continue making this style of ammo and boxes well into the 1950s (have seen 1950s delivery Indonesian in Winchester crates…the old embossed label type, also with .45 ACP, 7,92 and .303…all made for Indonesia by Winchester, in their familiar “White Box” export style.
Indonesian contract ammo is all “commercial” style WRA headstamps…no date (WRA and calibre markings only)…“Indonesia” exists only from 1949.[/quote]

Some while back, I asked about a white 7.92mm Mauser box by Winchester. Is this the same type box you are referring to in the above quote?

iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.ph … winchester


#13

Phil, see today’s reply to your original posting re Whitebox WRA 7,92…all will be revealed as above.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#14

Is it similar to this one John?

Regards
TonyE


#15

Tony - my box is identical, and in about the same condition. Cartridge is brass case with one cannelure, GM-FMJ RN bullet (230 ghrains), nickel primer with blue primer seal, headstamp “W.R.A.CO. .45 A.C.” On the side is “LOT 54"” along with a pretty illegible date but I think it is “30 August 1943.” Those markings are in black ink. Impressed (no ink) in the bottom of the internal box (tray) is, on two lines “45 AC” surmounting “MADE IN U.S.A.”

I have a box of identical construction, but of buff cardboard rather than white, labeled on 40 lines “42 CARTRIDGES S.A.BALL .45” A.C." It is from Canada and has ammowith GM-FMJ RN bullet, brass case with no cannelure, copper primer with purple seal, and headstamp “DI 42 45 AC”. There are no other markings except that there is an impressed “7” on the bottom of the inner box. I assume that is just a machine number, or some other quality control number. I thought these were just for Canadian use, but someone told me they were actually for England as well. The party had no substantiation of that, however.

I assume the 42 round quantity of these boxes was established solely on the basis of the desired box size, perhaps to meet pallet and shipping requirements. While 42 rounds would be 6 magazine-loads for the Colt-Browning Pistol, the one box, as you pictured, is TSMG-specific, and there was no magazine of that capacity or diviible to a known magazine capacity for the Thompson.

As you know, the dimensions are not identical to the 9mm 64 round box that was so popular in Canada.


#16

John

This is a slight digression from the 9mm thread, but still in the same general area.

Apart from use in Canada for training and perhaps guard duties. I think most of the Defence Industries .45 ACP came to Britain. As there was US made .45 ACP available a decision had been initially made not to manufacture that calibre in the UK but in 1942 consideration was given to loading both .45ACP and .30-06 in Britain. Kynoch produced a small batch in 1942 for trials but although it functioned perfectly well in Thompsons it was not as accurate as Winchester or Remington ammo. It was decided therefore not to manufacture but to rely on overseas production.

There was a requirement though for .45 Tracer ammunition and Kynoch loaded reasonable quantities using their own bullets and Defence Industries cases headstamped DI 42 45AC. This was successful and approved in 1943 for Naval Service. Whether DI supplied just cases or whether Kynoch broke down ball rounds I do not know. I have the Kynoch drawings and will post them later.

I believe also that there was a single supply system for the armies based in the UK, whether British or Canadian, whether they were fighting in North Africa, raiding Dieppe or later on mainland Europe and that the ammo would have been issued as needed, whoever the manufacturer.

Regards
TonyE


#17

Tony (or anyone else), here are some 9mmP with the WRA 9M-M headstamp.


The round on the far left is an experimental steel case load. Pretty rare but well documented. My questions relate to the other three rounds. I obtained all three in the UK in the mid-1970s. The two in the middle came from our mutual friend, and the one on the far right was a trade from another UK collector.

I have seen one other dummy like the one on the far right which seems to have a brass rod that entends well into the case with the bullet ogive on one end.

I have seen 3 or 4 samples of the other two over the years, usually with a UK connection.

I wonder if these drills were made up by training units or workshops or some similar organization that needed 9mmP drills early in the war before they became generally available. I know some of the technicians at Woolich made some drills early in the war (and later) with German cases and 380 Webley bullets-probably just for their own use because there were no drills available.

It is of course possible that they could have been made up by some commercial outfit after the war, but given the places our friend use to dig I suspect they were more likely in a government location.

Note that the drill with the hole in the side has a red wood spacer and a HP bullet that is clearly been made from a normal FMJ bullet. it also has a rubber substance in the primer pocket.

The other two drills have primer pockets that look like they were filled with solder.

Tony, have you heard of these kind of things before? What do you think of them?

Cheers,

Lew


#18

Hi Lew

Interesting variations. I do not have the WRA steel case although I do have the Western one (kind thanks to JohnM).

The round with the red wood bullet I am sure is a Home Guard expedient drill as whilst I do not have the 9mm, I have a virtually similar .45ACP also on a Winchester case (Below)

I would have said the third round was probably also a local job, especially as the hole and red wood is fairly typical for this period, but why the tip has been removed I have no idea. Also, when did the Home Guard start to receive 9mm weapons? An alternative explanation is that it may have been for the Navy for either S&W carbines or Lanchesters.

The fourth one looks to me like a locally made armourers dummy.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful,
Regards
Tony


#19

Tony, Thanks for the info. The .45 supports that at least the round with the red wood bullet were part of an established process. I had written off the one with a HP bullet as something home made. I can’t come up with a reasonable justification for converting the bullet to HP. Fact is I’ve seen at least a half dozen of these, all identical with the two case holes, red spacer, HP bullet and rubber filled primer pocket! Whoever made them must have made quite a few.

Trouble is there was probably a bunch of this kind of stull made with no documentation - and no reason for documentation. Just put together for a need because somebody probably said, “We need some drill rounds.”

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Lew


#20

Speaking about W.R.A:
Does anybody knows this form of bottom of a WRA cartridge? Picture right is a ‘normal’ one…