Older (than normal old) Pinfire Cartridges


#1

Anyone have any additional information on these? Especially the three on the right.

Here is what I know so far.

Cartridge on the left was made by the gunmaker, Jules Joseph Chaudun in the 1840s. There is actually a little writeup that talks about these in Journal issue 467 including a picture of a box this could have been from. My sample seems to be in super excellent condition.

I know nothing about the green one other than its dimensions and composition. Its OAL is 35.36mm, The bullet diameter is 9.4mm. The rim diameter is 12.74mm. The brass case is 11.82mm in diameter, and the green paper (pasteboard) case (or sabot) goes from a diameter of 11.60mm gradually up to a diameter of 11.92 by the bullet. The pin is about 10mm long with a diameter of 2.2mm.
There is some writing at the top of the green with “se” showing.

I do not know if this is a really early cartridge or if it is just a 36g shotgun shell with a slug. It feels early.

The two on the right have a “G” h/s and are made by Gevelot, and I have been told were for a specific British rifle. I know nothing else about them.


#2

[quote=“AaronN322”]Anyone have any additional information on these? Especially the three on the right.

Cartridge on the left was made by the gunmaker, Jules Joseph Chaudun in the 1840s. There is actually a little writeup that talks about these in Journal issue 467 including a picture of a box this could have been from. [color=#0000FF]Right ! You can believe the guy who wrote the article about it. He is the number one in the world about old French ctges !! lol!!![/color]

I know nothing about the green one other than its dimensions and composition. Its OAL is 35.36mm, The bullet diameter is 9.4mm. The rim diameter is 12.74mm. The brass case is 11.82mm in diameter, and the green paper (pasteboard) case (or sabot) goes from a diameter of 11.60mm gradually up to a diameter of 11.92 by the bullet. The pin is about 10mm long with a diameter of 2.2mm.
There is some writing at the top of the green with “se” showing.

I do not know if this is a really early cartridge or if it is just a 36g shotgun shell with a slug. It feels early.
[color=#0000FF]Right, it is a 12 mm ctge with a shortened case. (Please don’t call a 12 mm shell a 36 gauge or a 410 gauge. 410 been an invention of the Britishs after they used to call it normally 12 mm during many years, and 36 an invention of the Germans covering many different gauges). This ctge is not older than normal ![/color]

The two on the right have a “G” h/s and are made by Gevelot, and I have been told were for a specific British rifle. I know nothing else about them.

[color=#0000FF]If you give dimensions it would be easier !!![/color]

[/quote]


#3

[quote=“jeanpierre”][quote=“AaronN322”]

The two on the right have a “G” h/s and are made by Gevelot, and I have been told were for a specific British rifle. I know nothing else about them.

[color=#0000FF]If you give dimensions it would be easier !!![/color]

[/quote][/quote]

Both cartridges are pretty identical in size other than the ball or conical bullet.
Here is dimensions for one with conical bullet.
Its OAL is 42.2mm
The bullet diameter is 9.86mm
The rim (and rest of brass case) diameter is 11.86mm
and the hardened paper (pasteboard) case has a diameter of 11.6mm
The pin is about 9.2mm long with a diameter of 2.2mm


#4

[quote=“jeanpierre”][quote=“AaronN322”]
I do not know if this is a really early cartridge or if it is just a 36g shotgun shell with a slug. It feels early.
[color=#0000FF]Right, it is a 12 mm ctge with a shortened case. (Please don’t call a 12 mm shell a 36 gauge or a 410 gauge. 410 been an invention of the Britishs after they used to call it normally 12 mm during many years, and 36 an invention of the Germans covering many different gauges). This ctge is not older than normal ![/color]
[/quote][/quote]

So then was this made to be a shotshell, fired from a shotgun? Or was it made for a specific rifle and they just used technology available?

The rim makes me think it is a shotshell.


#5

Both cartridges are pretty identical in size other than the ball or conical bullet.
Here is dimensions for one with conical bullet.
Its OAL is 42.2mm
The bullet diameter is 9.86mm
The rim (and rest of brass case) diameter is 11.86mm
and the hardened paper (pasteboard) case has a diameter of 11.6mm
The pin is about 9.2mm long with a diameter of 2.2mm

[color=#0000BF]I don’t know,
The bullet diameter doesn’t fit with the case dimensions. Too small.
I have to check my collection[/color]


#6

[quote=“AaronN322”][quote=“jeanpierre”][quote=“AaronN322”]
I do not know if this is a really early cartridge or if it is just a 36g shotgun shell with a slug. It feels early.
[color=#0000FF]Right, it is a 12 mm ctge with a shortened case. (Please don’t call a 12 mm shell a 36 gauge or a 410 gauge. 410 been an invention of the Britishs after they used to call it normally 12 mm during many years, and 36 an invention of the Germans covering many different gauges). This ctge is not older than normal ![/color]
[/quote][/quote]

So then was this made to be a shotshell, fired from a shotgun? Or was it made for a specific rifle and they just used technology available?

The rim makes me think it is a shotshell.[/quote]

[color=#0000BF]Of course it will fit into a shotgun.
But perhaps it is for another gun or pistol with a short chamber.
I don’t know, sorry[/color]


#7

[quote=“jeanpierre”]Both cartridges are pretty identical in size other than the ball or conical bullet.
Here is dimensions for one with conical bullet.
Its OAL is 42.2mm
The bullet diameter is 9.86mm
The rim (and rest of brass case) diameter is 11.86mm
and the hardened paper (pasteboard) case has a diameter of 11.6mm
The pin is about 9.2mm long with a diameter of 2.2mm

[color=#0000BF]I don’t know,
The bullet diameter doesn’t fit with the case dimensions. Too small.
I have to check my collection[/color][/quote]

Are you really sure the bullet diameter is 9.86 and no more ??
JP


#8

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
Are you really sure the bullet diameter is 9.86 and no more ??
JP[/quote]

Upon measuring it again, I notice that the bullet is not perfectly circular. The diameter ranges from 9.85mm to 10.1mm and in between. My digital calipers say they are accurate within .03mm and repeatable within .01mm.

Also, it seems to be a very soft metal as the calipers seem to dig into it extra easy.


#9

[quote=“AaronN322”][quote=“jeanpierre”]
Are you really sure the bullet diameter is 9.86 and no more ??
JP[/quote]

Upon measuring it again, I notice that the bullet is not perfectly circular. The diameter ranges from 9.85mm to 10.1mm and in between. My digital calipers say they are accurate within .03mm and repeatable within .01mm.

Also, it seems to be a very soft metal as the calipers seem to dig into it extra easy.[/quote]

The bottom of the bullet is not increasing inside the case ???
JP


#10

[quote=“jeanpierre”][quote=“AaronN322”][quote=“jeanpierre”]
Are you really sure the bullet diameter is 9.86 and no more ??
JP[/quote]

Upon measuring it again, I notice that the bullet is not perfectly circular. The diameter ranges from 9.85mm to 10.1mm and in between. My digital calipers say they are accurate within .03mm and repeatable within .01mm.

Also, it seems to be a very soft metal as the calipers seem to dig into it extra easy.[/quote]

The bottom of the bullet is not increasing inside the case ???
JP[/quote]
It may be, though there is not an obvious bulge. The case diameter stays pretty equal all the way from the bottom up. but it is also paper so it could be thinner or less paper up top.

Now the one with the round ball does have a little bulge at the top of the case so it is definitely larger inside the case than on the top; and it is turned in a little to hold the ball.


CLICK Image for larger version


#11

I don’t know what they are, my guess would be a pinfire predecessor of the garden gun type but I have a small observation .

Although they look like shotgun cartridges, a conical bullet of the type shown would need some form of rifling to stabilise it. Otherwise it would tumble. The other one , well a ball is a ball, it could be fired in both smoothbore or rifled barrels.

My bet (better than 50-50) is that the bullet has a hollow base and is a little minie ball.

The variations in diameter could just be that you are not getting down to the parallel portion of the bullet which is enclosed in the case. It looks to be swaged which would mean that the roundness would be pretty uniform. Cast bullet are often not round because of the mould. In fact cast bullets are virtually never truely round.

Take a look at the revolving carbine at the bottom of this page

pantilesguns.co.uk/pinfire.htm

That cylinder looks long enough to take them, unlike a lot of pinfire cylinders which are very short in relation to their diameter.

You might want to print that page off and keep it for reference because as soon as the gun is sold it will disappear off the website.


#12

I would think also it is for a revolver .
Sweden or Danmark (I don’t remember) had such a gun shooting 12 mm

What is the length of the case?
jp


#13

Vince, and JP

I have Chris Curtis’ book on pinfire arms, and there are quite a few single shot rifles and revolving carbines that would most likely fit these cartridges.

Also, I absolutely LOVE the price of this carbine! I may even check into buying it…


#14

[quote=“jeanpierre”]I would think also it is for a revolver .
Sweden or Danmark (I don’t remember) had such a gun shooting 12 mm

What is the length of the case?
jp[/quote]

including the brass; 32.59mm
excluding the brass; 26.31mm


#15


#16

[quote=“AaronN322”]
Also, I absolutely LOVE the price of this carbine! I may even check into buying it…[/quote]

It wasn’t that long ago that they could barely give away anything that was pinfire. (both guns and ammunition) I certainly wish I had invested my money into some then . Roughly a five fold increase in ten years by my estimation. More, much more, in some instances.

Maybe it would be an interesting subject to explore as a seperate thread because it certainly bucks the trend, compared to wages and disposable income for example. Some so called rare collectable are being offered for silly prices now.


#17

I bought a (rather rough condition) pinfire 12 Gauge side by side in 2006 for £35. The seller probably didn’t really know what he was selling. I’m sure I could easily get a few hundred for it if I sold it now.


#18

I would say due to the pin lengh that the 3 ctgs ou right are for walking stick or auxilliary chamber ( 12 or 16 ga/12 mm for exemple )


#19

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
I have again lost what I wrote.
When it is long and if I do do a preview all is gone !

Here again !

  1. I corrected my answer (i gave rim dimensions for a rimless ctge !

the conclusions are the same

  1. [color=#0000BF]For 12 mm and 14 mm we can have 3 different pin lengths

short for walking sticks, normal for shotshells, long for reducer tubes

caliber short normal long
14 mm 5 8.90 11
12 mm 5 8.60 13

therefore it cannot be for a walking stick because the pin is too long

it cannot be for a short range reducer because:

  • the pin is too short
  • the bullet as said vinve is not well designed for a smooth barrel, furthermore for a short range reducer
  • the case is a lot shorter than for an ordinary shotshells[/color]

#20

I figured out what the green cartridge is:
ELEY’S Patent Gastight Cartridge Case

Anyone have a copy of this patent??