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SHERRYL would like to know the facts about their true identity if possible
Nickl? Never! They look like ordinary 9 mm kurz to me. Certainly the Czech one seems compatible with that caliber.
Sheryl - there is a very large, relatively current thread on these cartridges on this forum. Most of us who have really studied the subject have basically been able to verify that the rebated-rim versions of the 9 mm Kurz cartridge have anything to do with Josef Nickl. Suggest you read that thread.
Without head (rim) measurements for the DWA round, it is hard to identifiy it. Your 1940 “Z” cartridge, as duqjans says, is absolutely simply a Czech-headstamped 9 mm Short- caliber round.
By eye, my eye at least, the DWA* case appears to have a rebated rim, and I would list it as a Nickl round.
Here are the measurements for the DWA round
John I read the post about the 9mm Nickl it bowled me over I never knew this cartridge and its rim was
such a bone of contention,I own this cartridge for a long time but never paid any attention to it until this
post came along.Although the cartridge with the DWA stamp were mentioned no images were put out
so I decided i fill the void,
Gentlemen, considering this and the Nicklthread I was too fast with my certainty of never! More doubt come over with a book on my shelf:
Obvious question: What is the evidence from which the author of this book concludes this pistol must be in caliber 9 mm Nickl and cannot be an ordinary 9 mm kurz pistol?
I know but that makes the story just more confusing. What if the authors were right? (Klaus-Peter König/ Martin Hugo: Waffen Sammeln, die wichtigsten Pistolen und Revolver seit 1850)
Thanks, This is the first I have seen of the Mauser made prototype of the CZ22. Very nice!
Since it is a Nickl designed and Mauser built prototype, there is no question that it is build for the 9mm Nickl. The question remains, what is the 9mm Nickl??? Is it a rebated rim 9mmK or a normal 9mmK with a higher MV or a normal 9mmK or what???
Reading Brandt again, they offer the reason for the rebated rim so that a 9mmK could not be fired in the Nickl pistol but the 9mm Nickl could be fired in any other 9mmK pistol. If the 9mm Nickl was actually a significantly higher pressure load, then the rebated rim may make sense if the “lower power” 9mmK wouldn’t reliably operate the CZ22. The second half of Brandt’s assertion makes no sense at all, because if the 9mm Nickl had a significantly higher chamber pressure than you sure would not want it being fired in ordinary 9mmK pistols!!!
It sounds like there are a lot of Urban Myths surrounding the 9mm Nickl cartridge. Still, I think we are all a lot smarter on the subject.
Once again I feel obliged to remark that everything I have heard from Czech collectors is that the vz. 1922 pistol was chambered (and with breech-face) for the standard 9 mm Kurz (.380 auto cartridge, not for a rebated rim cartridge. Previously, it was thought that these pistols were later converted to the standard 9 mm K cartridge by opening the breech face. Two pistols examined showed no sign of this alteration, and were for the standard 9 mm Kurz cartridge. Further, in 1924, the earliest known Czech cartridges for these guns were marked right on the headstamp with the designation vz. 1922, pertaining to the cartridge itself, and they are NOT rebated rim.
Further, if the Nickl-Patent pistols in 9 mm Short caliber were first designed with rebated rim in 1921 for the prototype of the CZ vz 22 Pistol, why is it that rebated rim cartridges from RMS Düsseldorf, the most common of the rebated-rim 9 mm short rounds, are from 1918? Also, why is there no Czech-made round with rebated rim known? All the so-called 9 mm Nickl rounds are from German companies - Rheinisch Metallwaaren Fabrik Sömmerda, Rheinisch Metallwaaren Fabrik Düsseldorf, and Geco, using the early “D” (Durlach) headstamp.
I have come to distrust almost everything I have seen printed about this cartridge prior to the inception of these threads on the IAA Forum. Will we may be much smarter about this cartridge, as Lew says, I think that we actually know less about it than we thought we knew some years ago.
With no measurements on the nice picture of the Nickl-Patent pistol just posted, we can’t even be sure that the caliber shown with the picture is correct; the earlier Mauser-Nickl pistols were 9 x 19 mm Caliber, and there is nothing in the markings on the gun to prove it is a 9 mm short version, rebated rim or not, nor is there anything in the picture with which to compare the size of the pistol.
These are just my own thoughts on this whole question, and they, so far, are every bit as unsubstantiated as are all the theories on these rebated rim 9 mm short cartridges, so I am just stating my own view and feelings on the matter, and not “condemning or critical of” those of other collectors.
A very important aspect of being smart is knowing what is untrue. It isn’t restricted to knowing “true” facts. We don’t know any hard facts about the 9mm Nickl, but we do know that the box of rebated rim cartridges was labelled 9mm Kurz when they were loaded in 1918. That is a hard fact, which casts great doubt that in 1918 the 9mmKRR was being referred to, much less was named, the 9mm Nickl!!!
Thank you to you all for a discussion that leaves no questions open in its dept and competence
delivered by all this is as it should be thank you
I don’t think this issue can be resolved until someone measures the bolt face of a 9mm Nickl pistol.
Happy New Year!
The problem is, if we are talking about original Nickl’s patent pistol prototypes made by Mauser Werk, Oberndorf, is that of finding a specimen of one, that is not 9 mm Parabellum caliber, to measure. If we are talking about the Czech CZ vz. 22 (N), I am not sure that would resolve any issues, since they work with the Czech cartridges, the earliest known to me being one dated 1924 with the cartridge designation of vz. 1922 right on the headstamp, and that all of the Czech-made cartridges measure within the tolerance range for the standard 9 mm k. (.380 Browning Auto, 9 mm Corto, 9 mm Court, 9 mm Scurt, 9 mm Kisa Browning, etc.). That along with the fact that the rebated-rim 9 mm Short round referred to as the 9 mm Nickl cartridge predates the Czech vz. 22, including 1921 prototype, by three years.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any patent papers assigned to either Josef Nickl or the Waffenfabrik Mauser A.-G., for the rebated rim cartridge, even though there are sources that credit Nickl with specifically designing this cartridge. Those, if dated, would at least tell us whether or not the usual appellation of “9 mm Nickl” is correct or not.
I agree, though, that this issue does not seem to be likely to be resolved soon, if ever. It has only raised even more confusing facts and theories about the manufacture of the cartridges (who, what, when, where and why) than we were faced with before.
Thank you for your reply if tough I intended to let the matter rest, someone else decided to dig a little
more.I on my part thank you for the incredible knowledge you have imparted on all of us and it is
always a great pleasure to be lectured by people that know the subject they are speaking of and
when it comes to that it does not matter what the actual subject is