Over stamped 303s


#1

Here are some 303 rounds that were originally made my Hirtenberger (per C.Steinhauer, H2N).

Who were they originally made for?

Who over-stamped them?

Three of them have cncs projo w/ red tip. The other (dated 37*), has a plain cncs projo.

Any information in these would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Dave


#2

Dave,

I believe those headstamps are all for Holland (Netherlands). I don’t recall why they were overstamped. I have never researched the exact relationship, but there was a strong tie between Hirtenberg of Austria and the factory at Dordrecht, in the Netherlands. Perhaps one of our Dutch friends can explain the technicalities of the the relationship and what the overstamps were about.

Harrie…?


#3

I believe these were made by Hirtenberger Patronen, Dortrecht, Netherlands…A Dutch formed company under the direction of HP Austria from the 1930’s until Germany took over Holland. The equipment was then used to manufacture German 7.92 cartridges. Why over stamped I am not 100% sure.

added: I am sure one of our fellow Dutch members can shed more light on these…


#4

There are similar overstamps in 6.5 Mannlicher Rimmed cases. The primers look original so probably not reloads.


#5

Despite looking like originals, they are Refills…The Restamping of the Refill date is badly done, hence the double stamping. ( original should be at 90 degrees to refill data., as practised with 6,5 reloads.)

Cases were primed with 5.0mm primers ( .199) Roth patent pocket (Central flash hole thru anvil). Most Probably KNIL ( East Indies) for Aircraft .303 Guns.

Doc AV


#6

I posted photos of triple stamped .303’s as part of this topic: http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15019


#7

following up - I have this from “Small Arms Ammunition Identification Codes”

there was also a discussion on this somewhere in the early 90’s on an ECRA newsletter:

“The .303” British red tipped cartridge with the headstamp ‘38 * H overstamped ’ 2 40 2 40 ’ was used in the Dutch East Indies by the KNIL (Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger = Royal Dutch East Indies Army). The official name for this round was 'P.S nr.23 P’ that is ‘Patroon Scherpe nummer 23 pantser’ = 'Ball Cartridge No.23 Armor-Piercing’. This cartridge should not be confused with the ‘patroon Nr.23’ that was used in the Netherlands as this ‘nr.23’ was in 7.9x57R.

The ''P.S nr.23 P has a CNCS jacket and the bullet tip (10mm) was lacquered red. The projectile had a hard steel core with a lead sleeve between the core and the jacket. The loading was 2,5grams of smokeless powder (square flake).

The original headstamp ‘38 * H’ is a Hirtenberg factory one. Hirtenberger supplied the Department of Colonies with cases and bullet in 7,7mm.

This cartridge was used in the Dutch East Indies in the M.20 Lewis, M.23 Vickers and M.36 Colt Machine guns.

Apart from the 'P.S nr.23 P’ there was a ‘Service cartridge’ (red label). This was the same as the A-P round except that the core was of mild steel and that the tip was lacquered white. There was also the 'P.S nr.23 L’, a tracer version. In this case the bullet was lacquered green".


#8

[quote=“DocAV”]Despite looking like originals, they are Refills…The Restamping of the Refill date is badly done, hence the double stamping. ( original should be at 90 degrees to refill data., as practised with 6,5 reloads.)

Cases were primed with 5.0mm primers ( .199) Roth patent pocket (Central flash hole thru anvil). Most Probably KNIL ( East Indies) for Aircraft .303 Guns.

Doc AV[/quote]

In order to place the overstamping at 90 degrees to the earlier headstamp implies an operator manually aligning each cartridge before it is stamped to avoid a clash with the earlier info. However, if you use a multiple overstamp, duplicated at 90 degrees, then at least one of the overstamps would be visible.

That is my theory at least. The overstamping seems always to be duplicated at 90 degrees implying that it was not applied in two separate operations but by a single bunter.

A similar case can be seen with early .303" cartridges which had the broad arrow added later. Two arrows were stamped so that at least one would be in a space between the existing headstamp.

gravelbelly


#9

Dave: I have seen many hundreds of the KNIL 6.5 m/m cases with four element headstamps in which there was clearly an original headstamp (usually 22 over FN) at 12 and 6 o’clock and a second headstamp (both usually numeric) at 9 and 3 with no overstamping to be seen. While it seems unreasonable to think these cases were individually hand aligned for the second element of the headstamp I do in fact think that was how they were produced. Careful handwork was apparently available very cheaply in the Dutch East Indies. Jack