P151 7.9x57mm headstamp varieties


#1

If there is anyone who has an interest in German 7.9x57mm headstamp varieties besides Dutch and me here is a little tidbit for you.

The Germans used a variety of symbols to indicate a 70% copper content brass case, i.e. 5 and 6 pointed stars, 5 & 6 pointed asterisks, etc.

From 1935 until 1938 P151 used a mixture of 5 & 6 pointed asterisks, some lots having one kind and some the other. In the case of at least one lot, both types were used.

1933
Lot 1 = 5 points
1934
Lot 1 = 6 points
Lot 2 = 6 points
Lot 4 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 6 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 8 = 5 & 6 points
1935
Lot 1 = 5 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 3 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 4 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 5 = 5 points
Lot 6 = 5 points
1936
Lot 1 = 5 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 7 = 5 points
Lot 8 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 9 = 5 points
Lot 10 = 6 points
Lot 11 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 12 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 13 = 5 points
Lot 14 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 15 = 5 points
Lot 17 = 5 points
Lot 18 = 6 points
Lot 19 = 5 points
Lot 20 = 6 points
Lot 21 = 5 points
Lot 22 = 5 points
Lot 23 = 5 points
1937
Lot 1 = 5 & 6 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 3 = 5 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 6 = 5 points
Lot 7 = 5 points
Lot 8 = 6 points
Lot 9 thru 16 = 5 points
1938 and later = 5 points

If anyone has one of the missing lots or has a headstamp that has a different character than listed I would appreciate hearing about it.


#2

Very interesting information indeed, thank you very much.

The closest I have to these dates would be these 2 fired cases:



#3

Phil, I have a theory but at the moment I don’t have any evidence for it.

The later years from P151/dnf (1939- 1945) they made a difference between 2 plants.
The first started with lot# 1 the second with lot 51.

Could it be that the star made the difference in the early years?


#4

What does “P151” stand for? George


#5

P151 = RWS Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff A.G., Werk Stadeln/Nürnberg

451kr,


#6

George

P151 =

Manufacturers code RWS Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff A.G., Werk Nürnberg-Stadeln (dnf)

Regards
Michael


#7

Dutch - you might be on to something. “dnf” is the sole instance I can think of (pertaining to small arms ammunition manufacturers in pre-1946 Germany) where the same code was used for two different factories (although both the same company). The number of points on the star could well be the defining symbol between production from the two plants. Sure as heck a theory that needs more exploration!


#8

Dutch – Interesting, do you know when the Stadeln Plant went into operation? I know the lot numbers above 50 didn’t appear until 1939 but if they were in operation before that the differences in the asterisks might be the clue.


#9

Phil, here are my lots.
Unfortunately I still have no explanation.

1933
Lot 1 = 5 points

1934
Lot 1 = 6 points
Lot 2 = 6 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 4 = 6 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 6 = 6 points
Lot 8 = 5 points

1935
Lot 1 = 5 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 3 = 6 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 5 = 5 points
Lot 6 = 5 points

1936
Lot 1 = 5 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 7 = 5 points
Lot 8 = 5 points
Lot 9 = 5 points
Lot 10 = 6 points
Lot 11 = 5 points
Lot 12 = 6 points
Lot 13 = 5 points
Lot 14 = 5 points
Lot 15 = 5 points
Lot 17 = 5 points
Lot 18 = 6 points
Lot 19 = 5 points
Lot 20 = 6 points
Lot 21 = 5 points
Lot 22 = 5 points
Lot 23 = 5 points

1937
Lot 1 = 5 points
Lot 2 = 5 points
Lot 3 = 5 points
Lot 4 = 5 points
Lot 5 = 6 points
Lot 6 = 5 points
Lot 7 = 5 points
Lot 8 = 6 points
Lot 9-16 5 points


#10

I have edited my original list to include Dutch’s lots and also added a couple 1934 lots that weren’t on the first list.

As you can now see there are quite a few lots where both 5 pointed and 6 pointed types appear.


#11

P151/dnf produced in 2 different plants.

RWS Nürnberg and RWS Fürth. The centers of these citys are 6 miles apart.

First the later “dnf” code.
It is reasonable to think that the main plant Nürnberg was starting with lot # 1 and Fürth with 51. There are a lot of brass cases SmK Lsp, steel cased Treibpatronen and Ex. rounds known
After studying some box labels from “dnf” you can see that the way “dnf” is printed on the label is slight different. This is explainable because each plant had there own print facility.
So far “dnf”.

To identify the 5 or 6 star head stamp I looked to other round who are known to be made in Nürnberg. There is a head stamp known; N S* 1 34 made for Custom/Police and they also played with Aluminum cases. Both cases have a 6 star on the head stamp.

There was also a civilian hunting cartridge production in Nürnberg during WW2. They all have a 6 star in the head stamp.

The tracer boxes, 3th and 4th lot looks from the label the same. Both cartridges are loaded with a tracer bullet P151 7th lot of 36. Interesting is, The bullet from one box have a green-red tracer and the other a yellow one. The cases have a 5 and 6 star identification.

We could assume that Nürnberg had a 6 and Fürth a 5 star identification before 1939
A mystery is that after lot # 9 1937 no 6 stars head stamp is seen on a P151 head stamp.

Any help is appreciated.

Dutch


#12

Dutch - I have a picture of the box for SmK L’sure P.151. 3. L. 37 that also has a yellow tracer. It looks like during loading lot 3 (bullet lot 7 of 1936) is where they made the change from green-red to yellow tracers. All lots after lot 3 have yellow tracers. The box is not mine so I don’t know if it has a 5 or 6 point star.

One question. You say the loading plants were located at Nürnberg and Fürth. Where does Werk Stadeln fit in to the overall scheme of things?


#13

[quote=“pbutler”]One question. You say the loading plants were located at Nürnberg and Fürth. Where does Werk Stadeln fit in to the overall scheme of things?
[/quote]

It is the same.
Stadeln is a very small town (and less than 10 miles away from where I live).
and in our “slang” we always speak about Fürth/Stadeln.

cheers
René


#14

Thank you René. That clears that up for me.