Pakistani 7.9x33 made from 7.62x54R


#1

Picture taken during 2011 at a Darra shop which was making 7.9x33 cartridges using modified 7.62x54R cases. The only clearly visible headstamp looks like 188 91.


#2

Wow! Well done finding this image Fede!

Now we just need to find somebody to bring a box of them to the US.


#3

Maybe we can arrange a cartridge collecting tour, who’s coming?


#4

Get an NSA clearance first or you will end up in one of those fuzzy black/white thermal imaging movies with crosshairs on the screen and english language radio communication for sound.
If you escape this you may wake up with a headache in a wet orange dress with the air smelling like sea and distant Spanish language heard behind that fence and minefiled you see in front of your window (if that is granted).


#5

Fede,

just wondering, what makes you believe those are made of 7,62x54R? Did 188 change to 5,33 mm diam primers and when?

Gracias hombre, Hans


#6

If the hs is not 188 could it be that the cases are reformed 7.62x39 in disregard of the larger head diameter of a 7.92x33. This way it would also fit better into a “bi-caliber” AK/AKM variant.
Maybe the image also allows to see that the proportions could be somewhat different (smaller) compared to a real 7.92x33?
Also the projectile looks somewhat different compared to a 7.92mm. Maybe they are using 7.62mm projectiles?

The remaining question will be: why would they need such a caliber at all (no mater which of the variants other than the 7.62x39).

I fully agree with Fede, we need to examine some specimen!


#7

Alex, the second option is much better because we may try asking other inmates about the meaning of “PMV” and then die happy.

Hans, the picture may be deceiving but in my opinion these looks like standard 7.62x54R primers, and if you measure the cartridge dimensions you can notice that the case is too big for being a 7.62x39. Also, not only the groove is plain steel but also the side of the rim, evidencing turning. Here are some enlarged pictures:


#8

Some StG-44 have been reported in Darra during the last 30 years.


#9

Some StG-44 have been reported in Darra during the last 30 years.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of that as well as of genuine German WWII ammo in boxes.


#10

[quote=“Fede”]Alex, the second option is much better because we may try asking other inmates about the meaning of “PMV” and then die happy.

Hans, the picture may be deceiving but in my opinion these looks like standard 7.62x54R primers, and if you measure the cartridge dimensions you can notice that the case is too big for being a 7.62x39. Also, not only the groove is plain steel but also the side of the rim, evidencing turning. Here are some enlarged pictures:
[/quote]

Fede, when you compare the head of a 7.62x54R and the dimensions of the primer in relation to a 7.62x39 head the proportions should be different as the primer here appears to be smaller. I guess this is what Hans means.

And about the “too big for a 7.62x39”: take a normal 7.92 and compare it to the image, you will find it to be stubbier (lager diameter) and the proj. to be shorter than in the image.
I know we are all a bit guessing now as we are lacking the real measurements…

That “PMV” issue sounds tempting in deed!


#11

I am wondering about their source of jacketed bullets. I am aware of Khyber Pass armaments, made by very primitive methods, that look and function well. It is just my feeling that jacketed bullets are pushing the home workshop envelope. My first thought is that maybe someone had a supply of 7.92x57 duds (like that Turkish stuff a dozen years ago) and pulled the bullets. I suppose they could be standard 7.92x57 projectiles with new cannelures and seated deeply, or even with new cannelures and the base ground/sheared/cut to bring the bullets down to proper 7.9x33 weight.

Could the workshop possibly come up with a swaging setup jury rigged from a reloading press or pound dies? Electroplating copper over a cast bullet really isn’t hard, but it just seems far fetched to me. I have seen pictures of Khyber reloaded ammunition topped with once fired projectiles, but these look too good for that.

I guess 7.62x39 is routinely reloaded in South West Asia, so where do they get their components for that. What is the chance that there is enough of a local manufacturing base to turn out semi mass production jacketed bullets? Any ideas?

Thanks-Curt

PS The PMV references are over my head. Please elucidate on the subject unless it is just too dirty.


#12

Curt, I mentioned the possibility that these cartrtidges were made from 7.62x39 including the projectiles. That was just a theory of course.

PMV:
As I implied that we may end up in Guantanamo if we travel to Pakistan and go for ammunition in one of the most suspect areas in the world Fede proposed to make the best of the situation and ask inmates from Cuba about the Cuban factory PMV which we have not positively identified so far.


#13

For what it’s worth, I doubt that the US and Castro are economizing by sharing prison space.


#14

Jon, I think Fede thought of Cubans like as of any other nationality residing in that all-inclusive resort.

Cuba is allowing private business recently, maybe you will have a new (and old) near by tropical holliday resort soon (given both countries stop ignoring each other).
And to keep it ammo related: exactly that will bring us info on PMV then (and many spent cases from Cuban ranges).


#15

Referring to a thread contribution several entries ago on this thread, do not underestimate the abilities of the Khyber pass (Darra) workman to improvise and manufacture items one would think would be beyond the capabilities of such facilities.

A dear friend of mine was in Darra many years ago, and brought back for me a handful of reloaded 9mm cartridges. There were many different headstamps.
Some of the bullets in these load rounds had rifling marks on them, and some showed signs of repaired deformation. One appears to be made from two pieces of the same or different jackets somehow fused together. At the time he visited Darra, against Frontier warning signs indicating that the Pakistani Government did not rule in Darra and could not guarantee the safety of visitors, he was very well received and stayed overnight as the guest of one of the leading shop owners. In fact, that person’s shop, at that time, was the only one in town with electricity. Now, recent pictures would indicate that most of the shops have power tooling to one degree or another, with some having some pretty sophistocated and large machinery. Also equally evident is that much work is still done with hand tools, or hand-powered tools by workmen sitting on low stools on dirt floors!

I have a Darra 7.62 Tokarev round that has a spurious Russian headstamp, and in quality, appears the equal of European military ammunition with the sole possible exception of the headstamping itself. And yes, it has a full metal jacket RN bullet of quite normal ogive for the caliber, and of good visual quality.
It is not a recycled jacket, although I have no way to know if the jacket, or bullet as a whole, was actually made in Darra. I suspect it was, since I also have a Darra-Made Makarov pistol that is finished externally as well as a Russian or Bulgarian pistol, but internally is somewhat rough, including some fitting problems that could, if fired much, cause some problems. Both the Tokarev cartridge and the pistol are a far cry from the heavily used components assembled back into live ammunition of my five or six Darra 9mm Para rounds. They seem to have come a long way in just 20 or 25 years.

Just a general observation that I thought might have some interest and relationship to this thread.


#16

John, could you please post side and headstamp pics of your Darra Tokarev round?


#17

Looking at the phots of the shellcases, It seems to me that to make 7,9x33 from 7,62x54R requires a lot of Lathe turning and head swaging.
The primer is also .254" (6,45mm) which seems “overlarge” for a normal “Mauser’ style Head…( Post '89 Russia does make .308 (7,62x51) with the .254” primer, both brass ( Russian Pack) and Steel (Hornady Pack).)

From my Case manufacture experience, if these cases are made from 7,62x54R, then they have to have the rim either Turned or sheared off, then the head “redrawn” from .485" to .469", then the extractor groove cut into the head.

Otherwise, the copper wash on the head will be fully removed, leaving an obvious “raw steel” band in front of the extractor groove. of course, if the Base case used was CWS 7.62x51 cases, no turning etc required ( only FLS and trim).

I don’t know if these cases are “once fired” or New…they have done a very good job of applying Primer sealant…I know for a fact that various Pakistani
( Tribal) Factories do use imported Once-fired Brass cases…Over the last few years I have had several enquiries for Bulk ( and I mean “BULK”) quantities of Once-fired 7,62N and 9mm Para cases, as well as 5,56mm. Sadly I had to refuse, given that our D^D would refuse Export Permits to such a “Touchy” area.

regards,
Doc AV

BY the way, several Afridi tribal area Dealers have Large quantities of StG/MP 44s, mostly in poor to fair condition ( ie, “U-Fix-Em”) unsaleable locally due to lack of ammo… ( Durrah Adam Kel area)


#18

From John Moss:

“Two examples of Darrah-made 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev cartridges. Cartridge
on the left, dated 77, has two tiny extra markings to the left of the
first “7.” They look a little like a tiny “88” but I can’t really read
them. Other than that, the two cartridges have slightly different
extractory grooves and extractor groove bevels from each other. The
headstamps are larger and less precisely struck than that of a genuine
Russian headstamp from Arsenal 38 and of the same date. Photos and
collection of John Moss.”



#19

Awesome!

It may be worth to note that the hs here were not applied during the drawing process by a bunter but were stamped with “normal” punch tools after the cases were finished.