Peters 9mm Luger mix up?

In PetedeCoux Auction under the number 675 a 9mm Luger round is listed with the same
stamp as shown on the picture,but of much junger age and make up I like to know what
the time line is between those 2 cartridges since PETERS had been sold to Rem. in 1934
The one shown has a truncated bullet was that by any chance still made for the Dutch
after the first war??Just being on the nosy side of stings in this case.
Sherryl

Actually Sherryl, the one in the sale is not a 9mm Luger as such. It was a case used in the late 1940’s as part of the Cal. .35 T-117-E-1 experiments by Remington and Springfield Armory. See HWS Vol III for more about this.

As to your question about yours being part of a contract to the Dutch. I can’t help, but I would think / guess it was most likely for the US market sales. John or Lew or lots of others who know more than I can likely nail that down for you.

As you probably know when Remington took over UMC it took years for them to stop using labels, bunters & such in production. And when I visited the UMC shot tower in Bridgeport Conn. at the cartridge show in 1991 when it was closing 4 of us (Dick Fraser, Jim Tillinghast) when on a “tour” after the show was over and in one building there was a complete (or maybe at that moment not too complete as it was being moved) line of equipment for making Peters Shot Shells.
Here is a photo of Jay Hansen on the right & myself in front of some of the Peters machines.


My point in all this is that unless you have a box (and know the code) quite a lot of ammunition can not be reliably dated because of headstamp and bullet style.

Pete
You gave me the answer i was wondering about! thanks,I set over those lines in the
Auction prospect and did not really know what to make of it.Thanks for clearing it up
nice picture and memory I suppose.
Sherryl

Sherryl - most early US 9 x 19 mm Luger rounds had truncated bullets. When I am saying “early” I mean prior to about 1921-1925. Peters began making the 9 mm cartridge commercially, I believe, soon after WWI. The last catalog I have specifically and only for Peters Cartridge Division dates from 1980, and shows the late, and perhaps last, dedicated Peters Brand box for that caliber, as shown below (with, God knows why, a Duck on the top lid - not hardly a waterfowl hunting cartridge!). Remington and Peters were still owned by Dupont at that time. The “Duck” box contains rounds with the still-used-today “R-P 9 MM LUGER” headstamp.

I am also showing a box which I think I was told dates from 1920, and may be one of the first Peters boxes. Note it is for truncated-bullet, 124 grain MC ammunition. Headstamp is “PETERS 9m/m LUGER.”

Note: Boxes are not to the same scale. The Modern Peters Box is 5" long, while the older box is only 4" long.

John Moss

Thanks John for the info,this period from 1919 to about 1932 is fascinating for me
when it comes to these 9mm and 45
Sherryl

Sherryl

Truncated bullets were used on 9mm Luger cartridges much longer in the US than in Europe. Canada was still importing Kynoch truncated bullet loads made in the early 1920 as late as the early 1930s. Winchester was still making truncated bullet 9mm Luger ammunition, both Full Patch and Hollow point into 1941. USCCO 9mm Luger, which was being made by Winchester after 1927, used only truncated bullets. Remington discontinued the Truncated 9mm Luger in the early 1920s. Peters boxes are more difficult to find, but they were producing truncated cone cartridges until at least 1937.

I have only one early Western commercial 9mm Luger box and it is from 1924 and contains truncated ammunition.

It may interest you to know that Western took over essential all of Winchester labeled production of 9mm Luger by the late 1950s. However, in 1951 Western began producing WRA headstamped 9mm Luger packed in 1930s vintage blue Winchester boxes, and this ammunition was loaded with both FMJ and HP TRUNCATED bullets using the old Glisenti ogive which Western produced during WWI on contract for Italy. This ogive has a much higher shoulder than most Winchester production which used truncated bullets that had a shoulder almost at the casemouth.

US Production of 9mm Luger before WWII is a very interesting story and an interesting collecting area on its own. I have a Winchester box with a print date (not load date) of 1906, and there is evidence that Winchester salesmen were offering 9mm Luger ammunition for commercial sale as early as 1903, that is before the German Army received their first 9mm Luger pistol for testing in 1904. If you are interested, look at the story of the Fat Barrel American Eagle 9mm Luger pistols, sometimes called the M1902 or M1903.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew,

What is the evidence of Winchester offering 9 mm Luger ammunition for commercial sale as early as 1903? The first Winchester Catalog listing the 9 mm Luger cartridge was from March 1908. That is a roughly 5 year differential, which doesn’t seem likely. Considering the rarity of the * D.M. * K. headsamped German 9 mm cartridges, worldwide in collections, I am not sure even the Germans could have provided the cartridge commercially, at least in any volume worth export to the US, in 1903. There would have been virtually no market in the US for 9 mm Para ammunition in that year. The Luger pistol in America was in minuscule numbers in 1903, and was the only pistol chambered for that cartridge. Are you sure about that date - I mean documented. I am thinking in terms that in old documents, it might be easy to misread “1908” as “1903,” if the print was not in good condition.

Now, another thought - it might be that Winchester was pondering the production of that caliber as early as 1903, but for their salesmen to be offering the cartridge, five years before the first cataloging of it by Winchester, boggles the mind.

I will never say never, but would really like to know the documentation behind that.

In mentioning “look at the story of the Fat Barrel American Eagle 9mm Luger Pistols,” I assume you are referring to Dr. Sturgiss’ book, since it is the best reference I know of on the subject of Luger pistols??

John

Please allow me to thank you both,for incredible informative mail,as in all such dicussions
various opinions emerge and that in itself is healthy.John thanks for the beutifuii pics
presenting the box labels.The very best to you both
Sherryl