Please help with this cartridge

I believe it is a 7.92 Mauser but trying to find out where it would have been used, what war?

image

It is a 7,9 cartridge…I see youhave a .30 M1 carbine cartridg for comparison…were they found close to each other?
The cartridge is an early copper/brass plated steel case, using the pre- war production codes in the headstamp.

The headstamp is P (atronenfabrik) 209, the IXb1 is the steel supplier (IX) and the copper coating (Galvaniziert)
Company ( b1) the 40 40 is the cartridge case drawing lot, and year, and actual case-filling lot will be on the Label.
Now I don’t recognise the bullet profile but it could be one of the special loads…again, noted only on the label.

And if found near the .30 M1 car. Cartridge, I would say somewhere in Western Europe after June 1944.
In an American Battle zone (France Belgium Germany)

If the Carbine cartridge is only there for size comparison and not Location then it could have been used anywhere in Europe. From 1940 to 1945.

Doc AV.

DocAV
Thanks for the response. I was trying to find out for a friend what war this was used in and when and you totally answered my question, thank you.
I am not sure if they were found together or not.
Thanks again.

I just found out the bullet is woodimage

PlatzPatrone 33, Blank training ammo for rifles and especially MGs.
Made right through the war.
Doc AV.

We try it again.

P209 do not exist as an ammunition factory. It should be P207.

The “P” does not mean Patronenfabrik but was a part from the code system.
The P (Polte) what all should think. The ( P )207 was Metallwerk Odertal G.m.b.H., Bad Lauterberg/Harz.
The metal plant who made the steel was IX = August-Thyssen-Hütte, Hamborn
The code from the cup manufacturer is “b” = Hindrichs-Auffermann AG Walz- und Plattierwerk Wupperthal/Oberbarmen
The steel mix from the case is „1“ means;
C 0,19 - 0,24 %,Cu 0,25, Mn 0,6%, Si 0,12%, P 0,03%, S 0,035%
So all the information for identify problems is on the case.

Because the case has primer crimps it was planned to load this case as heavy ball. (sS)
They used lot leftovers and bad cases for loading to blank 33 rounds.

Rgds

BTW. This code system was used until the end of WW2.
Only the “P” code changed in 1940/41 to a character code.

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Dutch,
Why was “P” code abandoned? Was it compromised by spies? Or some technical reason?

After WW1 the allied control commission allowed only Polte Magdeburg to make cartridges.
In secret other company started with the production.
As already explains in the forum the other factories had a code Pi, Pu, Pö and Ps

In 1926 they started with a new code system. A number behind the allowed “P” expecting the commission would think all rounds were made by Polte.
It was starting with P25, P120 and so on. It was not only Polte with cartridges but also for example powder.
The only plant who was allowed to make powder was Reinsdorf (Rdf)
To put a number by “Rdf” it was made by an other plant. In this case Rdf/128 Pulverfabrik Walsrode. This code system chanced in 1940

Rgds

P128Walsrode

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But why did “P369” become “oxo”? Why not to continue with “P369”? And just give newly established factories bigger numbers. Like “ak” may become “P9576”.

Probably because the P system had been compromised…it only referred to ammo factories ie, PatronenFabrik and so the two letter and three lettercodes applied to all suppliers in the Reich and associzted countries…even Swiss suppliers were given Letter codes.This made interpretation more difficult, although the bureacratic Germans assigned lettercodes in groups per country;eg, Hungary all started with “j”
Czechoslovakia all stated with"d", etc…
This and certain mistakes …dnh for a Dynamit Nobel factory, and so on. One could, by carefull examintion of thee actual ( post war) lists find similar examples.

They even chsnged some of the codes in late 1944 but to little intelligence effect.

The Allies did not bother…Headstamps were " in clear"
Only the Russians were Paranoid and used number codes etc. A system which continued thru the cold war Warsaw pact and PRC.
Doc AV

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Doc, didn’t the US & UK “abbreviations” evolve into the NATO codes then?

It may be worth to mention that the German alphabetical “letter” codes then were covering all manufacturers and all goods, not only ammo, explosives or so. Means it could well have been a standardization effort. Of course it also took care of the situ in case any codes were compromised by then.

The Soviets started in 1927 and still do like many others.
In my view China with it’s centralized system and language/script barrier + special codes for certain contracts is the most successfull in all this.
Not to forget the Czechoslovaks who basically continued the Wehrmacht code system - just with entirely new codes.
Yugoslavia initially started out after the war with numerical codes (Soviet influence one can assume) and in 1957 they switched to alphabetic codes which normally were the first letter or the first 2 letters of the “propagandistic” factory name + the first letter of the city it was located at.

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In my opinion they changed to letters in 1940 simply because it is possible to cater for many more entries if you use 3 letters. Lowercase letter are easier to distinguish than upercase letters.
The numbering system originally was pure numbers 1 through 999. The next after 999 was 1a but keeping to 3 characters, could run only to 99a. Next came 1b through 99b. The highest complete code sequence ran to 99d and the highest known number code is 68e.

There was only one single numbering sequence, the P just being a prefix for small arms ammunition factories. For example, 42 was assigned to Mauser Oberndorf, which used S/42 to give the impression that authorized factory Simson had built the rifle. There was no P 42.

Edit: Assignment of consecutive blocks of code due to lazy operators was not uncommon. For example, the codes fqx onwards were assigned to at least 10 makers of gauges (in alphabetical order!). Or hla, hlb and hlc were factories that belonged to the Kopp brothers.

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Jochem, I can add that there is also a 98e code found in MP38/40 magazines, which means there is a gap of undocumented numbers in the 69e-97e range.

Regards,

Fede

Fede, you are correct. According to Heidler, 98e ist Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG, which already had 660 assigned. Thank you for pointing this out.