Pointed Tokarev?

I found this pic on the internet, along with the accompanying notation. Can anyone provide any info at all on the pic or the notation?

PtdTok
dziwne pociski od ppszy albo tt-tki - Identyfikacja (bez …

I got this:
strange bullets from the Polish Army or tt-tki - Identification (without …
(Polish).
Dan

It is hard to tell from the photo, as the condition of the case makes it look to be CWS. If it is brass, and unheadstamped, I would identify it as a Spanish sub-caliber rounds that were loaded on Russian unheadstamped Tokarev cases, why those, I have no idea. My cartridge laid over the picture matches the OACL and the ogive of the bullet quite well.

I don’t know what sub-caliber device this was for, but imagine it was some kind of practice or targeting device for an anti-tank weapon of some sort.

Hope someone else here has more information, or perhaps will know whether the cartridge in the picture had a headstamp or not. I see that the picture came from a polish source, but I don’t know of any Polish Tokarev cartridge similar to the Spanish one.

John Moss

I just found the pic on a Polish forum thread. There’s a fuzzy shot of the base, and the h/s looks to be Soviet: 5xx * 44 *

It looks much like a stuffer.

It could be just that, a “stuffer”. However, as I said, OACL and bullet ogive match my Spanish round. It is known they were made with Russian Tokarev cases. I assumed since I got mine and it had no headstamp, that the all had no headstamp. That could have been a poor assumption. It is not an instance of a reloaded case - mine shows no signs of the case having ever been fired. However, it is possible that they were made up from a stock of miscellaneous Russian Tokarev rounds and remanufactured with a new bullet and powder. The primer on mine looks like the original Russian primer.

I’d like to see one our Spanish participants chime in here if they are familiar with the Spanish sub-caliber round. I am not talking about the 7.62 x 24 version here, which have Spanish headstamps and a shorter case.

John Moss

I think nobody in Poland will digg up a Spanish post war subcal round with a Russian case and with plier marks and a 7.62x39 proj. in it.

Hello, I think you are talking about 7,62x24 Regaña sub caliber, you can find more info at municion.org http://www.municion.org/762x24/762x24.htm

Best regards.

Diego.

I am currently thinking “stuffer” out of Poland, but stranger rounds have appeared out of nowhere before. I’m not aware of any similar reports out of the “Eastern Regions”.

EOD - I am bemused by the Polish connection as well. All I can tell you is that my specimen, with no headstamp, matches the physical profile of that cartridge almost perfect, and is in very nice condition. It has no evidence of either a change of bullets or being a reload of any kind.

You indicate by doubting a dug up “post-war” Spanish round that you believe this to be pre-1946. How could it have a 7.62 x 39 bullet in it if it was a pre-1946 round dug up in the form that it is in the picture? I know the designation of the 7.62 x 39 bullet is M43, but were any of these fielded during WW2?

This is a problem when photos are posted with virtually no information about them - where and when they are found, measurements, signs of non-originality, etc. I know sometimes this information is unknown, and that is why the questions are being asked, but regardless, it makes positive ID almost impossible.

My own cartridge, which I could not make a usable scan of, matches well with the description in Molina-Orea’s book Cartucheria Española, page 326, Code: PC-7.62(1.6)-2, which is a prototype of the 7.62 x 24 Regaña. The round they show is a tracer, and has a knurled ring on the bullet, which looks like an original crimping groove. They describe that the cartridges were made with Russian Tokarev cases and show their specimen to have no headstamp. They mention the presence of the original Russian 3-stab mouth crimps, but with an added crimp, not described. My round has a very heavy crimp right at the mouth, heavy enough to slightly deform the case mouth. It does not have the knurled cannelure on the bullet, but that does not worry me, as these rounds were prototypes and may exist in forms other than the book. The total weight of my cartridge 13.75 grams (212.3 grains). Using Molina’s weights for each component, the bullet shown as 9.1 grams (139 grains), the bullet in my round would weigh approximately 8.75 grams (135.5 grains). Since Molina-Orea seem to round out some of the measurements given, this still seems a little lighter than what they describe, but then mine is likely an ordinary ball round - again, these are prototype cartridges. Regardless, it is too heavy to be a 7.62 x 39 ordinary ball projectile, I believe. Bullet diameter of my cartridge, measured right at the case mouth, is 7.73 mm (0.304"). Cartucheria Española describes the bullet (there’s is a tracer) as “7.62 NATO Tracer Bullet.” I thought the NATO projectiles were somewhat heavier than the 9.1 gram they show, but I suppose they can vary from country to country.

All of this said, again, I am not positive the round in the picture is the same as mine. No weights, measurements, etc. are given. If a dug-up round from a WWII battlefield, I have no explanation for the bullet, since no overall cartridge weight was provided. All I can say is mine has the same rolled mouth crimp, evident in the picture, the retained-presence of the original 3-stab crimps, no extra cannelure on the bullet, and when laid on that picture, which appears to be full-scale, matches the case length and the ogive and overall exposed length of the bullet very well.

I have no solid opinion beyond that. I think to come to any accurate conclusion, we would have to find out far more details of that round, if the person, probably from Poland, who post the picture could be found and questioned about it. The main point of contention, in my opinion, in favor of it NOT being like mine, is the presence of a headstamp. Molina-Orea show none, like mine, but if the prototypes were made up on remanufactured Russian loose ammunition, they could have any Russian headstamp as well, I suppose. Cartucheria Española indicates the date of the Spanish round to be 1983.

John Moss

John, I went from the outer circumstances and the fact that the bullet there also has no stab crimp marks like the case does. So they can not be an original load.
We all have seen gazillion of stuffers in garbage boxes.

Alex - The known Spanish rounds are not an original load either, depending on your definition of “original.” They used either fired cases, or remanufactured loaded ammunition (replacing the bullet and the powder type and amount), but I would not define those cartridges as “stuffers.” They were legitimate factory prototype loads using surplus components - likely remanufactured live cartridges with just a new bullet, bullet crimping and powder charge - made up before they committed to the manufacture of the 7.62 x 24 sub-caliber cartridge (some of the factory ones of those, which I don’t collect, were actually made in Portugal, I think).

The point I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to made is that while that cartridge could well be a stuffer, the bullet seems to match the condition of the case and why one would find such a cartridge at all, regardless of nationality, in a “dig” at some site, if that’s where it was found (that information is not provided with the picture). I don’t know its originality, and again, to have the Russian crimps with a bullet not matching them is NOT a sign that the cartridge is just a total fake, for the reasons noted. I simply am pointing out that I have a known, legitimate cartridge of the same basic measurements and type, with the old three-stab crimps but a heavy newer crimp for the different bullet. I also admit that what little I know of my prototype round makes me suspicious of the one in the picture, as “the book” intimates that they were all unheadstamp Russian cases.

Personally, unless the Polish Person who posted the original picture where it was found, can be contacted and asked what the overall length and weight of the cartridge in question is, and precisely under what circumstances and where it was found, anything anyone of us says about the cartridge, including me, is pure conjecture.

John

I was a bit surprised when the focus shifted to Spain so quickly. My first thought was a spiritual influence from the similar Chinese sub-sonic round.

The focus shifted to Spain because there is a Spanish/Portuguese cartridge in Russian Tokarev cases almost identical to the round pictured. I assume you have one in your collection.

John

The Spanish loaded 7.62x39 PS projectiles?

John, I think I do have all or most of the varied Spanish variations, but my first thought was the Chinese version. I was thinking more subsonic than subcaliber.

The only known Russian cartridge in this respect is the very early stage of the programme that lead to the later 9x39.
Here a TT case was combined with a 7.62x54R 7N1 sniper projectile and abandoned right after the initial firing test.

Source: Russian gun magazine “Oruzhie” (Historical Series #1)
(107)

Alex, do you have the text for that…maybe with a translation?

Jon, not much to text, they said it was tested and abandoned. No lengthy history. The article is more on the 7.62x28 and the resulting 9x39 we all know today.

I think this is the article, just without the lousy image I have taken from the original Russina version:

Google translation (Russian to English) of title page:

Cartridge comparison photo from the above listed article with Google translation of caption:

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