Polish 7.92x57mm


#1

I am posting this on behalf of a friend as foreign 7.92mm is not my area of knowledge!

On a Polish ball round headstamped “K/67/Eagle/30” (green p.a.) what does the “K” stand for? There is no “K” listed on the IAA headstamp page for Poland.

Thanks
TonyE


#2

The headstamp looks like this:
http://www.municion.org/792/6730KG.jpg

Found this list in the www. It shows the 7.92x57 brass suppliers on headstamps 6 o’clock position. My Polish is near zero and online-translators produce rubbish, but I think it fits.

Na godzinie 6 umieszczano kod dostawcy mosiądzu do produkcji łusek:
- B - Fabryka Amunicji, Armatur i Odlewnia Metali “Babbit”,
- D - Schweizerische Metallwerke w Dornach, Szwajcaria,
- Dz - Walcownia Metali w Dziedzicach,
- E - Enzesfelder Metallwarenfabrik w Enzesfeld, Austria,
- F lub Fr- Fabryka Wyrobów Srebrnych i Platerowanych, Józef Fraget w Warszawie,
- Hr - Fabryka Wyrobów Platerowanych Bracia Henneberg w Warszawie,
- K - Kynoch Ltd. w Witton, Wielka Brytania,
- N - Norblin S.A. w Warszawie,
- NW - Metallwarenfabrik Neurath w Wiedniu, Austria.


#3

Thanks Defender for that.

From your post and others on BOCN it seems that the “K” is indeed Kynoch. I will have to check the Kynoch order books more closely to see what I can find out.

Thanks
TonyE


#4

From a previous thread here on the IAA Forum is a discussion entitled “Brass suppliers for Polish Cartridges”: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=738

On page 2 of this thread, about half way down the page is this statement and the full post-

" case metal supplier Kynoch (K). "

" xyxy - the feature on Polish 7.9 x 57mm headstamps that I would like to find out the “why” of are the gaps in the segment lines that separate the headstamp into four quarters. These appear on cartridges made by Zaklady Amunicyjne POCISK Sp. Akc., Warszawa (Pk), regardless of case metal supplier, from at least as early as 1926 thru the late 1930s. They consist of either one gap or two gaps in only one of the segment lines on the headstamp, and they can occur in the same year on any one of the lines. There are also rounds in the same years with no gaps in any of the lines. They also appear on a few of the 7.9 x 57s I have that were made by Panstowowa Fabryka Amunicji, Skarzysko (Eagle), but seem to be only in conjunction with the case metal supplier Kynoch (K). these findings are based only on my own collection, so they could be incomplete, although I have over 100 Polish 7.9s in my collection not including those made during the German occupation. Unfortunately, I have not the means to post headstamp photos on this Forum. "

The author information was lost when the site was hacked some years ago.


#5

There is a publication on SCRIBD by Piotr J. Bochyński ( Znakowanie i pakowanie polskiej amunicji strzeleckiej 1918-2003, in Polish) on Polish military small arms ammunition production between 1918 - 2003: scribd.com/doc/71133017/-WYD … 0000000077 .

Kynoch is also listed in this publication as a metal supplier (K - Kynoch, Wielka Brytania) and a headstamp with a K, dated 1929 is shown in a listing of headstamps associated with the various metal suppliers.


#6

Very interesting, thanks.

So, are we saying that Kynoch supplied only the metal to Poland and did not make the ammunition?

If so, that would explain why I have not seen any ammunition orders for Poland in the Kynoch contract books.

Regards
TonyE


#7

Tony, not sure if this can be of any help, but this code is found in cartridges manufactured in 1928, 1929 and 1930. Also, the last two dates were found in excavations from the the Spanish Civil War period.


#8

Tony,

Based upon the reading I’ve done Polish 7.92x57mm of this time period is typically headstamped in the following manner:

At the twelve o’clock position is the case maker’s mark. At the three o’clock position is the year of manufacture, last two digits of the year. At the six o’clock position is a marking indicating the supplier of the cartridge brass, and at nine o’clock is a marking indicating the percentage of copper in the brass alloy.

So for the headstamp you list above (K/67/Eagle/30) it should read as: 12:00 position = Polish eagle symbol (for Panstowowa Fabryka Amunicji, a Polish state munitions factory), case/cartridge maker; 3:00 position = 30 (year of production or 1930); 6:00 position = K (Brass supplier, Kynoch in this instance); 9:00 position = 67 (67% copper brass composition).

So based upon this information, Kynoch is the supplier of brass, not the case maker or cartridge maker. This makes sense as the sources I’ve seen list Kynoch only as a supplier of cartridge brass.

Brian


#9

Many thanks, another little mystery solved.

Regards
TonyE


#10


#11

“Kynoch is the supplier of brass”

In what form did Kynoch supply the raw brass material ?

sheet
pre formed case buttons ?

Glenn


#12

That is what I would like to find out.

I have no firm evidence one way or the other, but it could be as ingot, strip or cups (buttons as you term it). For an unsubstantiated guess, I would think perhaps strip is most likely. Does anyone one know how the other suppliers delivered their metal?

I don’t believe it would have been as NUPE cases as some sources have suggested though.

Regards
TonyE


#13

I agree with Tony on “metal suppliers” not being the case makers, for what its worth.


#14

Brass supplied to Cartridge makers is usually supplied as Rolls of precisely toleranced (sheet) Brass, Rolled by specialist rolling mills. Very few Factories around the world made sufficient Cartridges to justify a Rolling Mill of their own. WCC, in the 1930s, did have its own Mill, as did Kynoch…but Kynoch also made other drawn brass products, which justified the Capital cost of a Mill. SMI (Italy) also made other Brass products etc, as well as Coin Slugs, so had their own rolling mills and Smelters.

France had several “Metal Suppliers” as evidenced by the multiplicity of Codes denoting these; the Swiss used a similar system, especially for Steel cases. ( even buying steel from German Mills during WW II)

The supply of “Cups” for further drawing is more a Post-WW II phenomenon, for use by small ammunition producers. Korea ( Poongsan) and South Africa (DENEL Corp) will supply Cups to User specification ( Mostly for 7,62 Nato and 5,56 Nato cases).

Doc AV


#15

Yes as Doc AV states Cups are more modern. WW1 to WW2 almost all companies shipped Brass via rolled sheets. Some shipped actual flat sheets but it was more cost effective and easier to ship rolled sheets.


#16

Back in the early 1900s/late 1800s, CAC (New Zealand) used to receive both Gilding Metal ( 90/10) and Cartridge Brass (?70/30) from the USA, in flat sheets, and a damaged shipment ( salt water) became the centre of a Famous Court Case between CAC and the US Supplier ( and incidentally, the Shipping Company)…CAC eventually won damages…( studied the case at Law School, back in 2002).

The use of rolls of pre-determined width ( and thickness) was to reduce Handling by Personell (time and safety) and to increase “cupping efficiency” when “double action” presses which “Cut and cupped” in a single operation, were used, with suitable orientation of multiple Punches to maximise Brass Usage efficiency ( Frost " Ammunition Manufacture" NRA Publ.).

Doc AV