Post WWI 9 para german ctges


#1
  1. From the different catalogues you can have, what is the earliest date of selling of 9 para ammunition on the commercial market in post WWI Germany ?

  2. What is the earliest date (post WWI) for german military 9 para ctges ?

thanks

JP


#2

The earliest 9mm para post wwI date I have is MW 1 19 but it is probably a continuation of wwI production perhaps by employees?
The next date other than exercisers is Pu 6 24 and the P 8 24 but a P 3 24 has been reported I believe.


#3

I forgot the DWA 10 20


#4

thank you !

Now what about commercial 9 para ctges ??

I am wondering about the year they first offer this ctge on the market.

Perhaps due to the fact it was a military ctge and the treaty of Versailles they keep this ctge for the army. ?

Anyway the first date when they sold these ctges I found ) is:
1932 for RWS
1935 for DWM
1934 for GC Dornheim
and 1930 in the Akah catalogue of 1930

(but I have very few catalogues, but mostly only pages showing shotshells)

If you can give me more info …

Thanks
JP


#5

JP,

The DWA headstamp rounds were official military production aprovied by the Allies. There was a lot of commercial production, in the 20s and perhaps earlier. I have one box of unheadstamped 9mm P and the only thing on the label is “9mm COLT”. Interestingly there is an RWS drawing of a 9mm Luger cartridge labelled 9mm Colt. I suspect this is an RWS product from the 1920s for commercial sale, perhaps in Germany or perhaps for export. There are other examples of similar boxes with fake calibers on the box, usually 9mm Revolver.

The Catalogs are confusing because the export catalogs listed the 9mm Para rounds much earlier than the domistic catalogs which didn’t list them until 1938 or 1939 as I recall. Somebody with a good catalog collection could provide better data than I could.

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Thank you Lew,

  1. Here are more détails about the catalogues I checked
    1932 Export for RWS
    1935 Export for DWM
    1934 (Domestic ??) for GC Dornheim

I hope somebody with a good catalog collection will help us.

  1. If I understand you well, commercial production of 9 para did exist but it was undercovered because of the law.
    Right ??
    If yes it confirms what I thought.

JP.


#7

Legally speaking, there was no “commercial” production of 9 mm Parabellum in Germany after the Versailles Treaty, because the Interallied Military Control Commission (IMKK in German) declared 9 mm (ALL 9 mm including .380 ACP/ 9 mm kurz, for example) and above as military caliber. The only authorized factory was Polte, Magdeburg, and the only legal users were Reichswehr and German police. IMKK prescribed how many cartridges (including blanks) Reichswehr and Police were authorized to fire in training each year. Anything ouside this was illegal black production.
IMKK left Germany in 1927. So far I have seen no description of the practical events of lifting/ignoring the restrictions, which continued to be public law in Germany at the time. Certainly leaving the League Of Nations under Hitler in October 1933 was an important event.

PS: The deliberations about the list of authorized manufacturers of war materiel took a long time. So Lew may be right in describing DWA 1920 as authorized production.


#8

I don’t know if any of this will help at all. The RWS "Munition 1934"
“Deutschland” catalog does not show the 9 mm Para or any other 9 mm caliber
cartridge. However, the RWS “Munition 1934” Export catalog
does show the 9 mm Para, along with 9 mm kurz, 9 mm Browning Long
referred to as simply “9 mm lang,” 9 mm Parabellum, and even .45 ACP,
although it is misnamed as “Kal. .45 Colt.” While it shows no pictures
of them, as it does for the ones just listed, in their Table it shows also
9 mm Mauser Exportmodell, 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard and .38 Colt ACP
(which is also a 9 mm by metric measurement). Of course, the smaller
calibers, also found in the domestic catalog are their as well.

The earliest catalog I have for DWM is the export catalog of 1935, already
mentioned above as having the 9 mm Parabellum in it.

However, I do have the 1930 DWM booklet "Zusammenstellung ballisticher
Angaben für Büchsen- und Pistolen-Patronen, from Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-
Werke A.-G., and it does show the 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9 mm Parabellum,
9 mm Mauser, and 9 mm Browning kurz, all with the DWM case number and
the powder loading, which would indicate to me that they were loading these
cartridges. I must state, though, that this is not a sales catalog, but rather a
Ballistic study of sorts. For interest, by the way, this book still showed 6.5
Bergmann cartridge, although other than the Bayard version, it is the only
Bergmann round shown.

For Geco, I have a Price Alteration list dated February 1931, that refers to
pages in Catalogue No. 45 (which I do not have, but have to assume was
an Export Catalog since this price list is in English) shows the 9 mm (.38)
Short, the 9 mm (.38) Parabellum, and the 9 mm (.38) Mauser Export Model,
with or without clips, among other smaller calibers shown. Again of interest is that
the 4.25 mm Liliput cartridge is also on this list, along with all the other small
cartridges. The first actual catalog I have for Geco with the 9 mm Para in it is
that from 1933, which is still referred to as “Export-Preisliste 1933” although it
is a pictorial catalog, It shows most of the other 9 mm rounds like Browning
Long, Mauser, etc.

I hope this is of a little help and interest, JP.

Edited for typo error in one word, only.
Edited again to remove an erroneous statement.
John Moss


#9

Geco export catalog of 1924 listed 9mm short but not 9x19
Gary


#10

Hirtenberg catalog of 1933 lists kurz but not 9x19
Gary


#11

Just a tiny point. I missed in my file that I had the 1930 DWM (Berliner-
Karlsruher Industrie-Werke A-G.) commercial price list/catalog in my files
also, although a nice xerox copy of it, and like the ballistic book from the same
year, it shows the 9 mm Parabellum (DWM 480C) along with the other cartridges
mentioned in the ballistics book. Of course the 9 mm Para was listed in DWM
catalogs at least as early as 1904, but I know we are just talking post-WWI here.

John Moss


#12

I am a little confused. Obviously there was military WW1 ammo and I have a 1920 box of military ammo and some 1932 or 1934, would have to look.


#13

For John Moss :
Thank you very much for the info.

You said :
For Geco, I have a Price Alteration list dated February 1931, that refers to
pages in Catalogue No. 45 shows the 9 mm Short, the 9 mm Parabellum, and the 9 mm Mauser Export Model,
The first catalog for Geco with the 9 mm Para in it is the “Export-Preisliste 1933” . It shows most of the other 9 mm rounds like Browning Long, Mauser, etc., but oddly, neither the 1931 or 1933 literature shows the
9 mm kurz.

Le last part of your second sentence is in contradiction with your first sentence.
Could you please double check if the 1931 shows or not the 9 mm short.

Thank you very much

jp

.


#14

JP - Well, to tell you the truth, while I was typing that I was also
enjoying a bottle of my favorite beer, “Arrogant Bastard,” which I
suspect was specifically named for me, and I don’t know why I
wrote that. Both the 1931 Price Alteration list for Catalog 45,
which I don’t have, and the 1933 “Geco Munition $ Export-
Preisliste” show the the 9 mm Kurz, so you were absolutely
correct in pointing out the contradiction. There are many calibers
that appear in the 1933 Preisliste that do not appear on the Price
Alteration of 1931, but that could simply be because the price of
those cartridges did not change. I have no way to know since I do
not have the Catalog No. 45.

Sorry for the error. I am going to edit my entry to remove what is
totally an erroneous statement on my part.

Thanks for catching the error, mon ami.

John Moss


#15

Hi JP and John,

I have an original example of the Geco “Catalogue No. 45”. It is written in English and titled “Geco Arms Ammunition Hunting Requisites” but it’s not dated or indicated as an export catalog; however, the foreword says: “It is now 42 years since the firm came into existence”, which means that it would date from 1929 (1887+42=1929). Also, it shows the “The New Model 1929” Geco shotgun, the new Walther Polizeipistole, and “new records” in official rifle competitions for 1929 (Grüne Woche, Berlin, January 26th to February 9th). In any case, I don’t think that it may date from later than 1929 because it does not list Sinoxid brand cartridges, Brenneke Modell 1930 bullets, or any firearm put in the market after this date.

Regarding the 9 mm pistol cartridges mentioned in this thread, this catalog illustrates the .380 Auto (9 mm kurz) with R W S N headstamp, 9 mm Parabellum with K DWM K 480C headstamp and t-c bullet profile, and 9 mm Mauser, Export Model (DWM side drawing with 487 number).

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Fede


#16

Hello John,

you said :

I missed in my file that I had the 1930 DWM commercial price list/catalog in my files
also, it shows the 9 mm Parabellum (DWM 480C) along with the other cartridges
mentioned in the ballistics book.

.1) Is it an Inland or an export catalogue ?
2) Except the 9 para ctge, where the following ctges :
9 Bergman
9 Mauser
9 Browning long
9 kurz
9 Steyr
in this catalog ?

Thank you
jp


#17

JP - Since it is all in English, I assume it is an export catalog. It
does not say so on the cover. Most DWM Catalogs say either "Export"
or “Deutschland” (domestic use) on the cover. Of course, being from 1930,
this catalog is for Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke A.-G., formerly Deutsche
Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe in Baden.

For auto pistol calibers, the following are shown:

7.65 mm Parabellum (471)
9 mm Parabellum (480C)
7.63 mm Mauser (403)
9 mm Mauser “export model” (487)
6.35 mm (508A)
7.65 mm (479A)
9 mm Browning Short (540)
7.65 mm Mannlicher (466)
7.65 mm Mannlicher (497)
5 mm Bergmann (416A)
6.5 mm Bergmann (413A)
8 mm Bergmann-Simplex (488)
9 mm Bergmann-Bayard (456B)
5 mm Clement (481)

For some of the calibers, it shows more than one bullet type.
For some calibers it shows Drill Cartridges also.
A supplement in the back shows blanks, but only in calibers
6.35 mm and 7.65 mm Browning.

It does NOT show either the 9 mm Steyr or the 9 mm Browning Long
cartridges.

Hope this is of some help.

John Moss


#18

I can add that the 1930 Inland edition do not list any pistol cartridge of 9 mm caliber; the only ones offered are:

  • 5 mm Bergmann No. 2
  • 5 mm Clement
  • 6.35 mm Browning
  • 6.5 mm Bergmann No. 3
  • 7.63 mm Mannlicher 466 (7.63x21)
  • 7.63 mm Mauser
  • 7.65 mm Browning
  • 7.65 mm Parabellum
  • 7.65 mm Mannlicher 497 (7.65x25)

It is worth mentioning that the law implemented in 1927 prohibited the importation and exportation of any pistol and revolver calibers equal or above 8 mm, because they were considered “military equipment”. However, it is evident that most companies did not followed the exportation prohibition.


#19

Fede D-id they call the Mannlicher the 7.63 mm as you show it
on your list?

I ask because in my export catalog, the call both the Mannlichers
that they offer in it the “7.65” with only the ledger case number to
differentiate.

Not an important point, of course, just odd that in two different
catalogs from the same year and the same maker, they would use
two different designations. Without more description, the use of
7.65 mm for both makes it hard to know what cartridge is being discussed,
and this happens from time to time in correspondence. I prefer the 7.63
designation you used, and just wonder if DWM used it also in that one
catalog.

John Moss


#20

John, no, it’s listed as 7.65 mm, but I also prefer the 7.63 mm designation.

By the way, I forgot to add the 7.65x25 Mannlicher (497) is also listed in this catalog. Interestingly, the earliest designation used fot this cartridge is “7.63 mm”, but we all seem to prefer 7.65 mm or 7.65x25.

Regards,

Fede