Považské Strojarne factory No. 1 Dubnica


#1

PS headstamp with Various graphic layouts = Považské Strojarne factory No. 1 Dubnica, peoples cooperative. What was the headstamp back in 1936 when when the two plants were opened, one being in Bystrica. Did they both use “Z” or was it different for Dubnica?

joe


#2

Here are names, towns and shortcuts of factories and years of production ammo in former Czechoslovakia, now Slovakia :

  • Georg ROTH, Wien and Pressburg (Bratislava) - GR - before 1918
  • Jiří ROTH , Bratislava - JR - 1918 -1928
  • ČS Muniční závody Bratislava - M in full or half circle - 1928 - 1935
  • Zbrojovka Brno, factory Považská Bystrica - Z - 1935-1946 (during WW2 -
    German code dou)
  • Považské strojárne, Považská Bystrica - PS - 1946 - 1954, 1992 - 2006
    (military code - aym)

#3

Joe, the PS marking was not used until 1946, which is the date when “Považské Strojárne, národný podnik, Považská Bystrica” was established.

The factory that you are making reference did not made small arms ammunition; it was an artillery plant located at Dubnica nad Váhom that was part of the Škoda company from Plzeň. Today this plant is known as ZŤS-Špeciál, a.s.

Regards,

Fede


#4

" During WW II, German Code dou…" …The “Z” code was maintained for Special, Non-Wehrmacht orders (Waffen-SS, Export to Sweden and Romania, etc.)

Good History of the Georg Roth Plant and its Successors.

Doc AV


#5

[quote=“Fede”]Joe, the PS marking was not used until 1946, which is the date when “Považské Strojárne, národný podnik, Považská Bystrica” was established.

The factory that you are making reference did not made small arms ammunition; it was an artillery plant located at Dubnica nad Váhom that was part of the Škoda company from Plzeň. Today this plant is known as ZŤS-Špeciál, a.s.

Regards,

Fede[/quote]

Fede, here is a 43 head stamp. Think it is made after WW2

Rgds
Dutch


#6

[quote=“DocAV”]" During WW II, German Code dou…" …The “Z” code was maintained for Special, Non-Wehrmacht orders (Waffen-SS, Export to Sweden and Romania, etc.)

Good History of the Georg Roth Plant and its Successors.

Doc AV[/quote]

DocAV. The code Z was also used by the Wehrmacht. See Label

Rgds
Dutch


#7

The odd headstamp shown by Dutch is most assuredly spurious - that is, it is Post-WWII. The specimen I had was found in Viet Nam, along with an identical cartridge in all respects save the headstamp, which was with “P A” on it and probably meant to represent, falsely, a product of the Romanian factory. Undoubtedly, both cartridges were made at about the same time and in the same factory. They went to the trouble to even use a slight different font for the “Romanian” headstamp, but the cartridge characteristics tell the story that the two are of the same maker.

Unfortunately, I never photographed by two specimens, one of each, which have now found homes elsewhere. They are, I believe, quite rarely found.


#8

I believe it is an error to refer to the “Z” headstamp as a “code.” It is simply the first initial of the factory name, and was used on Czechoslovakian ammunition during the same era as were the initials “SB” on Sellier & Bellot-made cartridges of the same calibers. A small point, I admit, but one I believe is valid. The word code among cartridge collectors usually imparts a vision of markings originated to purposefully conceal the point of origina of the ammunition, despite any dictionary definition of the word. JMHO.

I suspect that Wehrmacht use of ammunition with the “Z” headstamp was a product of need and availability, rather than direct specification that it be supplied to them with that marking. Again, JMHO (intials that have been suggested to me on more than one occasion stand, in my case, for John Moss’ harebrained opinion). :-)

That label, by the way, is almost amusing. Another instance, like late Walther PP pistols with blank (unmarked) left side of the slide, and the code for Walther, “AC”, on the right side of the slide, and then fitted with wood grips with a nice “WALTHER” banner stamped on them, thereby identifying the maker of the pistol, and the “ac” code as well. The label takes the pains to identify the “secret” code as being a product of the “Z” factory, or vice versa. So much for secrecy!


#9

As Fede already pointed out, the factory at Dubnica is not known for making small arms ammunition, because it was a Skoda factory. German Code “fue” (vormals Skodawerke Mechanische Werkstatt)


#10

Dutch and John, I don’t have documentation about the PS and PA headstamps dated “43” but I’m my opinion these could be unidentified headstamps.

In this regard, the 7.9x57 cartridges reported in Vietnam by 1966 came from various sources, including those made in Czechoslovakia by PS and in Romania by CMC, both represented by typical examples with brass case, of course. Also, coming from the same scene we have these PS and PA cartridges with steel cases. What if these last examples are in fact cartridges made in Romania during 1943? I know, this is not documented but it doesn’t sound weird at all to me.

We do know that during WWII Pirotehnia Armatei made brass cased 7.9x57 cartridges headstamped PA and designated “7,92”; could it be possible that the PA marking on a steel case was made by this factory?

Regarding the PS headstamp, could this be another headstamp used by Pirotehnia Armatei Sadu?

Any thoughts or remarks about this?

Regards,

Fede


#11

Fede - I wish I had all my Romanian cartridges in 7.9 x 57 back. It might answer some questions, regarding bullet, headstamp fonts, etc.

With respect, I disagree with your supposition. I had, in my collection Romanian 7.9 headstamps with the headstamp “PA” dated from 1937 thru 1943. While the “44” date on the questionable steel-case “PA” 7.9 is 44, and therefore originally had me believing that it might be Romanian from that year, since I had never seen a “44” dated brass round from Pirotehnia Armatei, the “PS” headstamp is dated 43. If the steel case “PA” round is really Romanian, and made in the year represented, why would they have changed to the headstamp “PS” already known on ammunition made by an ally, the Slovak Republic of WWII which was aligned with the Axis, only to change back to “PA” in 1944? Further, if one has examined these two rounds in hand, as I have, they are identical to each other in manufacturing characteristics, so much so that for me, it begs the imagination to believe that they were made in two different factories, even in the same country. I will admit, stranger things have happened in the world of ammunition, but it is just one of many things that point to the headstamps on these rounds being spurious.

Further, whoever made them went to some trouble to make two different headstamps, and also to use very different font from each other on both of them.

I do agree with your comment that “these could be unidentified headstamps.” I have yet to find anyone willing or able to positively identify the actual maker and year of these cartridges.

Is it possible that they are Romanian? Yes. It can’t be said they are not because no one seems to know who really made them, including me.

Is it possible they are Slovakian. Yes - same circumstances as above.

Is it possible they were made in neither country (the bullet, as I recall, is very “FN” in appearance, and please don’t accept that as my identification of these rounds - I reiterate that I have no positive idea about who made them), but by someone else? I can’t rule that out at all, using any approach at trying to ID them.

As always, just my view on things. I have been right many times. Unfortunately, I have been wrong many times as well.


#12

John, thanks a lot for sharing your opinion. The only specific comment I have is that the Czechoslovakian “PS” headstamp was not used until 1946.

It is not my intention to carry this conjecture too far, but we must also keep in mind that between 1939 and late 1943 there were actually two different “Pirotehnia Armatei” in existence: the old one at Bucharest and the new one at Bumbești-Jiu (Sadu). This may explain the use of two different headstamps (i.e., PA and PS), but again, it is just conjecture of my part. In any case, by 1944 the “Pirotehnia Armatei” in Bucharest didn’t existed anymore.

Joe, my apologies, somehow we end up discussing Romanian cartridges!

Regards,

Fede


#13

[quote=“dutch”][quote=“DocAV”]" During WW II, German Code dou…" …The “Z” code was maintained for Special, Non-Wehrmacht orders (Waffen-SS, Export to Sweden and Romania, etc.)

Good History of the Georg Roth Plant and its Successors.

Doc AV[/quote]

DocAV. The code Z was also used by the Wehrmacht. See Label

Rgds
Dutch[/quote]

Dutch,

These might go in your box.

joe




#14

Fede - You are right, of course, about the Czechoslovak headstamp "PS."
I wasn’t thinking in that regard. Still, it is my belief that regardless of two factories, these rounds were made at the same factory - they are that identical except for the headstamp - and so my comment about using “PS” in 1943, and then Reverting to “PA” in 1944, doesn’t really change.

I agree on not carrying this subject on farther. There is no positive answer - only conjecture, and that is as true of my own beliefs as of yours, amigo mio. Therefore, this requires no answer and I will not add to the discussion, since I have stated all I know, and all I believe on the subject.

Regarding a change of thread direction, threads naturally morph sometimes as addition information is added. It is simply the way it is.


#15

[quote=“Fede”]Joe, the PS marking was not used until 1946, which is the date when “Považské Strojárne, národný podnik, Považská Bystrica” was established.

The factory that you are making reference did not made small arms ammunition; it was an artillery plant located at Dubnica nad Váhom that was part of the Škoda company from Plzeň. Today this plant is known as ZŤS-Špeciál, a.s.

Regards,

Fede[/quote]

Fede,

I must have translated incorrectly what I read in Regenstreif’s book Culots de Munitions volume one on page 313. I thought it translates as ;
Z = The National Armaments Brno factory is founded in 1918 with the plant entered the firm Georg Roth, Prague and Bratislava (ex -. Jiri Roth AG). Limited company with majority ownership of the state, as Czechoslovak Arms factory in Brno, CZ or becomes Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka A.S. Brno (marking Z). In 1936, opening two plants entirely new ammunition to Považské Bystrica and Dubnica. From 1938 to 1945, seized by Germany and transformation Waffenwerke Brunn A.G. Nationalization in 1948 as Zbrojovka Brno (popular cooperative). The Z brand appears in numerous variations which we will mention a few. Here cartridge 9mm Steyr, characterized by the abbreviation “9S” at 6 o’clock.

I was getting the impression that Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka A.S. Brno opened two new plants in 1936, one in Bystrica and the other in Dubnica. I guess I am not very good translating. I had better stick to asking a friend what it says.

Joe


#16

[quote=“THV”]Here are names, towns and shortcuts of factories and years of production ammo in former Czechoslovakia, now Slovakia :

  • Georg ROTH, Wien and Pressburg (Bratislava) - GR - before 1918
  • Jiří ROTH , Bratislava - JR - 1918 -1928
  • ČS Muniční závody Bratislava - M in full or half circle - 1928 - 1935
  • Zbrojovka Brno, factory Považská Bystrica - Z - 1935-1946 (during WW2 -
    German code dou)
  • Považské strojárne, Považská Bystrica - PS - 1946 - 1954, 1992 - 2006
    (military code - aym)[/quote]

THV,

Thanks for the info. That is what I was primarily after.

On the “Z” code with typical Považská Bystrica headstamp, I have all the way to 1948 skipping 1941 -1947 except I have Three 1942 headstamps. In 1948 alone I have from lot one to lot eleven, with 19 different type rounds all the same type headstamps. The configuration looks different than the 1942 and before configuration and style. Could be different location like Považské strojárne and they used the same headstamp selling the ammo to Israel… Who knows…

Joe


#17

Joe, post-war (1945-49) military small arms ammunition with a “Z” headstamp was made by Zbrojovka Brno, Závod Vlašim.


#18

[quote=“Fede”]John, thanks a lot for sharing your opinion. The only specific comment I have is that the Czechoslovakian “PS” headstamp was not used until 1946.

It is not my intention to carry this conjecture too far, but we must also keep in mind that between 1939 and late 1943 there were actually two different “Pirotehnia Armatei” in existence: the old one at Bucharest and the new one at Bumbești-Jiu (Sadu). This may explain the use of two different headstamps (i.e., PA and PS), but again, it is just conjecture of my part. In any case, by 1944 the “Pirotehnia Armatei” in Bucharest didn’t existed anymore.

Joe, my apologies, somehow we end up discussing Romanian cartridges!

Regards,

Fede[/quote]

Fede,

No apology necessary as this is all very interesting.

joe


#19

Do we know if this ammo was destined for Israel? Some of these 7,9 have no headstamp, but is the same primer crimps, phosphate primers, primer seating depth, exacting in appearance to the headstamped “Z” rounds of the late 40’s dates. Comes in plain gray 15 round German style boxes.

Joe


#20

Joe - We know that at least some of the Czech 7.9 x 57 ammunition made soon after the war - that with no headstamp and with “uxa” or “ux” headstamps, went to Israel. That was possibly before the Russian invasion of Czechoslovkia when the latter country had a good relationship with the Zionist movement trying to establish a country of their own out of the British “protectorate.” If after the establishment of the State of Israel, and the Russian take-over of Czechoslovakia, it would have been soon after before the relationship between Israel and the Soviet Empire went sour.

Those “uxa” and “ux” rounds that have a date are certainly spurious dates. Aside from that ammo, those Czech and Slovak cartridges with Geometric symbols as the manufacturer designator also were supplied to Israel, but not necessarily exlusively. There is some reason to believe that they also were used in Czechoslovakia. A friend of mine was in the Czech Army as an officer candidate not long after the Russian invasion, and they were still using Mauser K98k and vz 24 Mauser rifles. Some of those went to Israel as well. My own 7.62 x 51 mm (conversion) Israeli Mauser started life as a Czech BRNO vz. 24, and likely was supplied to Israel by the Czechs in 7.9 x 57 mm caliber, and later converted in Israel. Also, most of us know that the famed Uzi SMG was base largely on the Czech vz 23 and vz 25 machine pistols.