Pre-NATO Cal 30 Light Rifle Cartridges


#1

On another thread the different pre-NATO Cal 30 Light Rifle cartridges were discussed. As an aid for myself I made the following list but there are still holes in it, especially with regards the T65 cartridges.

If anyone can add to this list or, better yet, correct it, please do so. I, and others, would be eternally grateful.

PS - See corrected list on page 2. rm
Ray

[b]T65 BALL, Steel jacket lead core M2 150 grain FB, 1945

T65E1 BALL, Steel jacket lead core, cannelure for 47mm case, 1946 - 47

T65E2 BALL, Steel jacket lead core, cannelure for 49mm case, 1948 - 49

T65E3 BALL, Steel jacket lead core, cannelure for 51mm case, WCC 54

T65E4 BALL, Boattail bullet, 10 ogive ???

T65E5 BALL, Boattail, same as T233 ???

T70 DUMMY

T71 HIGH PRESSURE TEST, 175 grain

T93 AP 145 Grain (M61)

T101 API

T102 TRACER

T103 OBSERVING

T104 BALL, Steel Core 136 - 147 grain, 1949 - 1954

T104 FAT1 & FAT1E1 case

T104E1 FAT1E3 case, 183 grain case

T104E2 FAT1E3 case with 10 Ogive bullet

T116 GRENADE

T172 M1 BULLET, 172 grain BT

T233 BT Lead core 150 Grain (M80)[/b]


#2

Hello Ray and happy new year

T65E1 BALL, Steel jacket lead core, cannelure for 47mm case
47 or 49mm case ?

T93 AP 145 Grain (M61)
The M61 is the T93E2
The T93 is a 7.62x47 and then a 7.62x49

here a list found on Internet :
[color=green]
T65 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, Short Case (7.62mm NATO)
T65E1 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, Short Case
T65E2 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (For Light Rifle)
T65E3 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (For Light Rifle)
T65E4 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, Short Case, 10 Caliber, 145 grain, Minimum Boattail
T70 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30, Short Case (to match Cartndge, Ball, Caliber .30, T65)
T70E1 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30 (FAT1E1 Case, .030 Wall Ball Bullet)
T70E2 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30 (FAT1E1 Case, .020 Wall Ball Bullet)
T70E3 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30 (FAT1E1 Case And Based Tracer Jacket)
T70E4 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30 (FAT1E3 Case, 20 Wall Ball Bullet)
T70E5 Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .30 (3)
T71 Cartridge, Test, High Pressure, Caliber .30, Short Case (To match Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, T65)
T71E1 Cartridge, Test, High Pressure, Caliber .30 (T71 with case, brass, FAT1E3; 183 grains approx.)(M60)
T78 Cartridge, Incendiary, Caliber .30, Assembled with Bullet, Incendiary, Caliber .30
T88 Cartridge, Incendiary, Caliber .30 (Prototype of T87 Charged with White Phosphorous)
T89 Cartridge, Tracer, Caliber .30 (Headlight)
T90 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing, Caliber .30 (Short Case)
T93 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing, Caliber .30 (140-5 grains AP Bullet for Light Rifle)
T93E1 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing, Caliber .30 (T93 wth Case, Brass, 183 grains approx.)
T93E2 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing, Caliber .30 (T93E1 wth Bullet, AP, Caliber .30) (M61)
T99 Cartridge, Observing, Caliber .30
T101 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing-Incendinary ary,Caliber .30 (Light Rifle)
T101E1 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing-Incendinary, Caliber .30 (T101 w/Case, Brass, 183 grains approx)
T101E2 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing-Incendinary, Caliber .30 (T101E1 with 10 Caliber Ogive Bullet)
T102 Cartridge, Tracer, Caliber .30 (Light Rifle)
T102E1 Cartridge, Tracer, Caliber .30 (T102 with Case, Brass, 183 grains approx)
T102E2 Cartridge, Tracer, Caliber .30 (T102E1 with 10 Caliber Ogive Bullet) (M62)
T103 Cartridge, Observing, Caliber .30 (Light Rifle)
T103E1 Cartridge, Observing, Caliber .30 (T103with Case, Brass,183 grains approx.)
T103E2 Cartridge, Observing, Caliber .30 (T103with Case, Brass,183 grains approx.)
T104 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (Light Rifle)
T104E1 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (T104 with Case, Brass, 183 grains approx.)
T104E2 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (T104E1 with 10 Caliber Ogive Bullet) (M59)
T107 Cartridge, Multiple Bullet, Caliber .30
T116 Cartridge, Grenade, Rifle, Caliber .30
T116E1 Cartridge, Grenade, Rifle, Caliber .30
T116E2 Cartridge, Grenade, Rifle, Caliber .30
T119 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing-Incendinary, Caliber .30 (Tungsten Carbide Core)
T119E1 Cartridge, Armor-Piercing-Incendinary, Caliber .30 (T119 w/Cast, Brass, FAT1E2, 183 grains approx.)
T128 Cartridge, Guard, Caliber .30
T172 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (T65E3 with 172 grain M1 Bullet)
T173 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (T65E3 with all-steel serrated bullet)
T174 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (Standarf Caliber .30 Round with all-steel serrated bullet)
T233 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 (Light Rifle) (M80)
T275 Cartridge, 7.62mm, Ball, NATO
T275E1 Cartridge, 7.62mm, Ball, NATO
T275E2 Cartridge, 7.62mm, Ball, NATO
[/color]
finally, my collection

US pre-NATO

French pre-NATO[ul]Model 51 on french 30-06 case
Model 51 with 7.5 Mle 24C projectile
Crusher
Model 54 AP
Model 54 AP-T
[/ul]

Michel


#3

Ray, Maverick1112003 thanks for the lists.

Maverick1112003, great photos and collection. How did you draw the headstamps ?


#4

“Headstamp Designer” a french software :
http://headstampdesigner.free.fr:80/

Michel


#5

Michel

Thanks for the list. I have that information also. My list was intended only for the pre-NATO cartridges and is not as detailed. I included more detail on the Ball cartridges because they are the ones encountered the most.

On your photo, from the left:

#2 is the T65 with the M2 bullet (bullet has a second cut cannelure inside the case)

#3 has a different bullet than #2. I call that T65E1. One knurled cannelure.

#4 has the same bullet as #3. isn’t it also T65E1 ?

#6 & #7 have the same bullet. Why do you call one T65E1 and the other T65E2 ?

Do you have any idea how to tell the T65E4 and T65E5 without pulling the bullet ? Also, what case were they loaded in ?

Your FA 53 Dummy has a 10 ogive bullet so I would say it’s a T70E2.

Ray


#6

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Michel

Thanks for the list. I have that information also. My list was intended only for the pre-NATO cartridges and is not as detailed. I included more detail on the Ball cartridges because they are the ones encountered the most.

On your photo, from the left:

#2 is the T65 with the M2 bullet (bullet has a second cut cannelure inside the case)

#3 has a different bullet than #2. I call that T65E1. One knurled cannelure.

#4 has the same bullet as #3. isn’t it also T65E1 ?

#6 & #7 have the same bullet. Why do you call one T65E1 and the other T65E2 ?

Do you have any idea how to tell the T65E4 and T65E5 without pulling the bullet ? Also, what case were they loaded in ?

Your FA 53 Dummy has a 10 ogive bullet so I would say it’s a T70E2.

Ray[/quote]
Ray

#2, #3 and #4
For me, all 7.62x47 with ball bullet are T65

#6 and #7
For the seller of this cartridge on AuctionArms (an Administrator of this forum !), the #6 is a T65E1. For Jean Huon on his book “Les cartouches pour fusils & mitrailleuses” (Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridges) the T65E1, T65E2 and T104 are 7.62x49.
the #6 is a T65E1 because the case is a FAT1
the #7 is a T65E2 because the case is a FAT1E1 with thicker rim.
see picture on previous thread “7.62 x 49.6 Pre NATO”

FA 53 Dummy
In “my” list, the T70E2 use the FAT1E1 case (7.62x49), it is rather a T70E4 or E5.

Michel


#7

maverick1112003
how did you get the software for the headstamp? I was on the owners site and couold not make much sense out of it even with the babelfish translator. Was I missing something, it seems to be free ware with some restrictions but I could not find the download button nor the payment if not freeware. vic


#8

[quote=“Vic”]maverick1112003
how did you get the software for the headstamp? I was on the owners site and couold not make much sense out of it even with the babelfish translator. Was I missing something, it seems to be free ware with some restrictions but I could not find the download button nor the payment if not freeware. vic[/quote]
see here :
http://headstampdesigner.free.fr/index_en.htm
and clic on “Contact” on the left.

It is not freeware, the price is 50 EUR (approximately $70).

Michel


#9

Michel

I cannot agree that there is a seperate T65 designation for the FAT1 and FAT1E1 case but not a seperate T104 for each.

Lacking documentation from either of the above gentlemen, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. At least until HWS III is published.

Ray


#10

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Michel

I cannot agree that there is a seperate T65 designation for the FAT1 and FAT1E1 case but not a seperate T104 for each.
Ray[/quote]unless the T104 has emerged after the case FAT1E1

[quote]
Lacking documentation from either of the above gentlemen, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. At least until HWS III is published.
Ray[/quote]This thread shows the need for HWSIII !

Michel


#11

Michel

You make a good point.

And yes, we need HWS III.

Ray


#12

I am confused about the terminology of this topic because I do not have sufficient background references to make the distinctions being discussed in this thread.

Recently, I had two cartridges come to me both identified as T104E2. The cases are 51 mm in length. I don’t know what the bullet weight is. Are these T65 cartridges with FAT1E3 cases? What is unique about the T104E2.

What is the difference between a FAT1E1 and FAT1E3?

Is a 10 ogive bullet the radius of the bearing surface to the meplat 10 calibers?

Any information to eliminate my ignorance would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Heavyiron


#13

[quote=“heavyiron”]I am confused about the terminology of this topic because I do not have sufficient background references to make the distinctions being discussed in this thread.

Recently, I had two cartridges come to me both identified as T104E2. The cases are 51 mm in length. I don’t know what the bullet weight is. Are these T65 cartridges with FAT1E3 cases? What is unique about the T104E2.

[b][i]Assuming they have a 10 ogive bullet, they are T104E2 cartridges, not T65. The T104E2 is a 51mm case loaded with the 10 ogive bullet. If they have a 7 ogive bullet they are T104E1.

The T65 cartridges are loaded with a GMCS jacket/lead core bullet while the T104 cartridges have a GM jacket with a steel core. The two can be Id’d with a magnet.[/i][/b]

What is the difference between a FAT1E1 and FAT1E3?

The T1E1 is a 49mm case with a 30 degree shoulder and the T1E3 is the final iteration, a 51mm case with a 20 degree shoulder.

Is a 10 ogive bullet the radius of the bearing surface to the meplat 10 calibers?

Yes. It can be visually identified.

Any information to eliminate my ignorance would be appreciated.

It’s easy to confuse case designations with cartridges. Look at the list I posted, and the expanded one posted by Michel. Those designations are all cartridges.

There are basically four cases, not counting the experimental 300 Savage cases… The T65, FAT1, FAT1E1 and FAT1E3.

There are, as you would expect with anything done by the government, a few glitches in the giddy-up but they don’t come along too often and can usually be sorted out.

Ray


#14

Thanks for the explanation, Ray. It clears up enough of my confusion to follow the topic now.

Heavyiron


#15

Yup, even Ray is confused. I quote from Ray’s last post above:

There are basically 5 cases. The T65, FAT1, FAT1E1 and FAT1E3.

Now, unless that is some kind of special NAVY counting system, Ray claims 5 case types then lists only 4!!!


#16

Ron

I have five fingers on my counting hand. (OK, four and a thumb)

I did it on purpose to see if anyone was paying attention.

The sun was in my eyes.

The AZ Cardinals won a playoff game and I’m still in shock.

Those are my excuses and I’m sticking with them. ;) ;)

Ray


#17

Ray–All worthy excuses, but I think it was the first one that got you confused. You didn’t know what to do with that thumb!!!


#18

Michel,
What is the significance of the * in your T65E1 headstamp please?
Jim


#19

Jim

I don’t presume to answer for Michel, but the meaning of the * in the FA 48 headstamp has not been fully documented, as yet. We’re all waiting for HWS III to see if they have pinned it down.

It was thought that the * added to the FAT1 was to ID the redesigned case and to help segregate it from T65 draw pieces. However, there don’t appear to be any T65 cases made in 1948 so that answer is kinda fuzzy. There were both T65 and FAT1 cases with FA 47 headstamps and it would appear that they were not segregated, so why segregate the 48?? Also, there are FAT1 cases headstamped FA 48, without the . To confuse things even more, there were FAT1E1 cases headstamped FA 48 and FA 48 without the *.

As I said earlier, the years 48, 49, and 50 saw a lot of overlap in cases and headstamps. One of those glitches that I mentioned. It appears that FA used whatever draw pieces/bunters were the most convenient. Cartridges from those years need to be examined closely, and carefully measured.

Here’s hoping Michel can add more to my very thin answer.

Ray


#20

[quote=“Jim”]Michel,
What is the significance of the * in your T65E1 headstamp please?
Jim[/quote]
Typically the use of a star in the headstamp of US small arms loadings indicates some unusual case metallurgy or process, but I do not have any definitive information as to what it connotes in this instance.

Michel