Punt Gun or Flare?


#1

Need help identifying this shell,

Is the hull on the left a Punt Gun Hull or it is a Hull for a Flare? I was told when I purchased it that is was a Punt Gun Hull.

Thanks for the help,
Steve

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37654&d=122530323


#2

It could also be a sub caliber for a mortar grenade


#3

That looks like an un loaded case for a British 1.5" Flare. It looks to have been made in November 1977. “XI” may be a Roman numeral, but I am unsure what it means.


#4

People need to be mediums to answer your question !
no hstp, no dimension, no caliber (or gauge)

Ok I will check my cristal ball!
From the dimensions regarding the other ctges it looks to be about 37 mm

What I am sure is :
this is a flare (or other purpose ) shell and not a punt gun shell

JP


#5

Usually (at least French and italian) 37 mm shells for mortar have a ring increase in daimeter) on the paper case
jp


#6

It is a punt gun cartridge that has been cut down for loading as a flare cartridge. The outer edge of the mouth will be slighty turned out due to the trimming. Not seen these loaded though.
Should have no headstamp & coppery looking non-magnetic head with a copper primer, brass battery cup and black annulus sealant. Bunch of them came into the states perhaps 7-10 years ago.


#7

It is a punt gun cartridge that has been cut down for loading as a flare cartridge. The outer edge of the mouth will be slighty turned out due to the trimming. Not seen these loaded though.
Should have no headstamp & coppery looking non-magnetic head with a copper primer, brass battery cup and black annulus sealant. Bunch of them came into the states perhaps 7-10 years ago.


#8

Hi Pete
First question : Is it 37 mm (1 1/2 inch) ?

Second question : from your comment I must think the writting 77 has been added when they were concerted to flare shells. Right ?
And what does it mean ?

Third: Could you please put a picture of the hstp and give the dimensions ?
(length, rim diameter and so on)

The only punt gun cases shells I know (100 % sure) of being used as flares are Eley ones, but it was a long long time ago.
And to be more precise they were not converted (cut down) but went out from the factory with original case length.

JP


#9

I will try to get a photo of the head when I can. If I remember right there is no head stamp and I will try to get some measurements off it. It might not be to this weekend. I do not keep my collection at our apartment. If is very damp and mold grows easily so I keep it at my parents where it is drier.

Thanks for the help so far.


#10

I think I have had the same casing (NPE ?) and have assumed it a flare as Pete describes it…even though it is stored with my very few large shotshells …they are conversation pieces…not my fancy


#11

There were thousands of paper cased 1.5" Flares used in British service. I don’t think they were all converted from shotshells?

Does the case in this thread have any headstamp? British 1.5" paper cased Flares weren’t headstamped.


#12

It it not headstamped. Flares were made in the normal Punt gun length (I have 3 flares with the Eley hs see below), and shorter as this one we are talking about.

Falcon you are correct they were not all converted from SS but just used the shells just as they were for both loadings (punt & flare) this one has been cut down.
About HS flares. I have 3 one is a J. Pain & sons white parachute flare another is a white to green parachute according to the topwad and another has a plain steel or iron topwad & too light to hold shot, so pretty sure a flare. All 3 have ELEY o LONDON o headstamps

J-P mine is like Pepper shows (yes 37mm) without the case marking (I’ve no idea when the print was added. All I’ve seen with or without marking were not loaded. & I’ve no idea what the marks mean. I see pesta2 is going to suppy measurements so…


#13

The question that comes to my mind is whether there was any market demand for punt gun cartridges by 1977?

My very limited experience with punt guns around that time was that they used turned brass or aluminium cases but by then punt gunning was an anacronism.
Commercial punt gunning had died off in Britain decades before as the flocks of ducks and geese declined.
The idea of a punt gun was to drift up to large flocks of ducks when they were sitting on the the water and take as many as you could with one shot. It was a purely commercial operation with no intention of being sporting.

The (very) few still in operation by then were rolled out more for entertainment, a bit of nostalgia.


#14

Hi Pete

  1. Eley made 1 1/2 punt gun cases with the following lengths:
  • 9 3/4
  • 8 1/2
  1. Eley used also these cases to make 1 1/2 flares for Very pistols with the following lengths:
  • 9 3/4
  • 8 1/2
  • 4
    All these cases went out from the factory well made, meaning the cutting of the case is perfect.
  1. I don’t know excatly what means your sentence : "The outer edge of the mouth will be slighty turned out due to the trimming"
    Perfect cutting ?

  2. I don’t know the length of your shell,(and the length of Pesta’one)

  3. And of course there was no marking on punt gun shells

  4. Eley was not the only one to make punt gun shells and flares in 37 mm (1 1/2)
    We have in France also 37 mm punt gun shells and also flares which look excatly the same !! (made by Cartoucherie Francaise for example)

  5. And we even use the 37 mm case as propellant ctges for 120 mm mortars

  6. conclusion : without exact dimensions and even without case length, I cannot be more presice except the fact that for me, due to the marking, it is 95 % sure it is a flare.

jp


#15

my case has the “same” “77” markings…I have nothing to add


#16

but which length is it ?
and the case shows traces of cutting ?
jp


#17

I will measure when at home


#18

I don


#19
  • Because of the too short length for a punt gun shell (cutting made in the manufacture)
  • because of the stamping on the paper tube
  • because of what it looks to be a recent date (77)
  • because of the purple primer annulus
  • because of the fact 1 1/2 is a gauge used extensively for flares in UK, France, USA (I put a drawing of the same shell US made but with a 100 mm long one or two months ago)
  • because a lot of them were imported to the states about 10 years ago
    it is a regular flare case

The fact the 1 1/2 flares have more (or less) same dimensions as 1 1/2 punt gun shells is another story.

And very often the primer for British punt guns is not a primer but a blank ctge (320 for exemple)
jp