Qspr


#1

Hi folks. My name is Chuck Odom (Ranger33) and I recently joined the IAA. I found my way to this really functional and informative group via 40 years collecting everything S&W to include the ammo used in their various caliber revolvers. I am currently in the process of putting together a display covering the life and times of the Quiet Special Purpose Revolver (QSPR) and its various accoutraments, i.e., holster, stocks, ammunition, etc., as well as several reports obtained from the original project manager for AAI back in 1969 when these revolvers were litterally cobbled together from no more than 19/20 total, S&W 29-2 44 Magnum frames. AAI ordered only the frames minus barrels, cylinders, sights and stocks. It was quite the weapon designed for close combat in tunnels in SE Asia. Unfortunately, the war wound down just as the QSPR finally had all the bugs worked out, especially with the ammunition, and it never saw action except for the 3 months in RVN during the summer of 1969 with the 1st ID, the 25th ID and the Americal Div. If anyone knows of a source for one of the original cartridges, spent or loaded, I would love to be able to put one in the display which will be ready, hopefully in time for the S&WCA meeting this year in Orlando.
Regards
Chuck
Here is one of the real guns currently residing at the museum in Aberdeen, MD and not the photo shopped one that’s all over the internet.


#2

Hi Ranger33,

Welcon to the forum,
See next topics about the cartridges.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3889&hilit=QSPR
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8500&hilit=QSPR

Regards 451kr.


#3

Thanks 451kr, this is exactly what I need to find. The picture though is great.
Regards
Chuck


#4

If memory serves, Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch has one of the cartridges and an interest in the system. He’s a big M29 .44 fan. Been a long time since I went out there but any lead’s worth checking for something this obscure.

FWIW, BATFE would likely consider possession of the cartridge as possession of silencer components (since the cartridge itself is a functional part of the ‘quieting’ of the report) and/or constructive possession of a silencer.

The guts of the AAI QSPR always seemed much better-though-out than similar attempts by other makers/nations. I would have liked to have seen the concept expanded, esp. to something other than a ‘shotshell’ cartridge.

I have suspicions that it has, but proof has been tough to come by.


#5

The piston cartridge design is not new. Mondragon used it long ago but not to silence the report. The silent 40mm for the m203 and 79 were a similar idea using a thin expanding cup as the piston .

Good point made : silent cartridges are BATF controlled. Best to have a cut away or fired case.


#6

Thanks to those who’ve responded to this thread. I am taking sound advice and limiting my search to only an expended round example or as recommended, a cutaway or maybe one drilled and made inert. My bride is a Federal Agent and would be pretty disturbed if I was to get hauled in by her buddies in the BATF. :) Hopefully a QUISPER cartridge will show up sooner than later. I figure it will cost me $2-300 bucks, but that is ok because it will complete the display.
Thanks again everyone.
Chuck


#7

You should be able to pick up a fired case for less than that and the difference is slight. No external difference except for the snapped primer. Inside you have the base piston up near the mouth. It can be pushed back without too much pressure . Put in some shot and close with some silicon. Legal and good enough for any display.

If you don’t turn one up soon let me know. I can likely help with that.


#8

Thanks Doc, I may have to take you up on your offer. I did speak to Mrs. DT today and will speak to him this wekend. He did not go to St.Louis after all.
Regards
Chuck


#9

the oldest patent on pison-silenced weapon that i have in my collection is dated back to 1902, it is US # 692,819 for those interested
You can see it using this link: google.com/patents/about?id= … ent:692819


#10

[quote=“Ranger33”]Thanks Doc, I may have to take you up on your offer. I did speak to Mrs. DT today and will speak to him this wekend. He did not go to St.Louis after all.
Regards
Chuck[/quote]

He put on a display of this ammo some years back and is usually very helpfull. Good luck !


#11

the oldest patent on pison-silenced weapon that i have in my collection is dated back to 1902, it is US # 692,819 for those interested
You can see it using this link: google.com/patents/about?id= … ent:692819[/quote]

Thank you. With the exception of the water the basic design is the same as with most of these captive piston cartridges.

If you shoot this into the wind you get a shower as well as target effect.


#12

If I recall correctly, some ComBloc Cold War quiet cartridges used a small amount of oil or other lube to ensure function and assist with sound/blast suppression.

The one I have always been most eager to learn about is the Knight QSPR-ish family…seen the guns, read reviews, docs, but per a recent request to them the entire project is “classified”, and only fedgov and .mil personnel can have even a spent/sample cartridge. I couldn’t even get a line drawing or diagram. What I know about the cartridge design intrigues me, and it seems like a more perfect version of what the Sovs did with their over-under quiet-cartridge pistol.

re: captive piston—this feature is applied to both the Simunition FX marking cartridge and (in “reverse”) the ATK FoF competitor.


#13

Happy you pointed out the captive pressure feature of the Simunition FX marking ammo. You beat me to it. However, the purpose of the design is a little different, as the rear of the Simunition case moves rearward under pressure, and a special replacement barrel (M9) or bolt converts the weapon (a locked-breech rifle, pistol, or MG) into blowback operation. It works extremely well, as I have fired many Simunition rounds in the M9, the M16, and also the M249 (the latter two in full-auto) with flawless functioning. Accuracy is poor beyond a few yards, but they are made mainly for close-range force-on-force training in which great accuracy is unnecessary. I wrote a fairly comprehensive test report on marking ammunition (Simunition and UTM) over 5 years ago, and if I can find it, I’ll post it sometime. We had some serious problems with UTM in 5.56mm at that time.

What some may not be aware of is that there are design features that prevent ball rounds from being fired in weapons equipped to fire the marking rounds. That could be catastrophic during a training exercise in which live bodies are the targets.


#14

[quote=“Mwinter”]If I recall correctly, some ComBloc Cold War quiet cartridges used a small amount of oil or other lube to ensure function and assist with sound/blast suppression.

.[/quote]

The Soviets used water only in their early pre war developments which lead nowhere.
All adopted cartridges beginning with the 7.62x35 SP-2 all had pushing discs or rods (or combinations) inside.

The only one with liquid was the 13mm PZh-13 aerosol cartridge (steel case) for the PSZh device. Since the “projectile” was liquid cyanhydric acid / hydrocyanic acid the liquid was no pusher of course. The cartridge just had a pusher disc inside (being silent sowith).


#15

The only Soviet “water” cartridge known to me is the artillery type which they used to function the guns on routine maintenance. THE “PROJECTILE” IS WATER which produces enough pressure to recoil the system. I suspect that there is a chemical as well to retard rusting of the barrel.


#16

These they are calling “hydrostatic proof”.


#17

You don’t see many of those. Do you have any photos handy ? I have only seen it in 152 How.


#18

Have a Polish 57mm ZIS-2 somewhere but not photographed. There were also other calibers.

I still wonder what these were good for since regular proof shots do exist.


#19

Soviet attache explained to me that Soviet artillery weapons had to be fired at regular intervals to make sure that they were battle ready. Seals harden , oils thicken , parts rust. Weapons need constant attention. The water shots were an inexpensive way to function the weapons for this routine. This was required for all guns held in reserve. We have always packed out reserve weapons in cosmoline and left them sit in storage. Not using a machine is worse for it that using it.


#20

Here are some photos of a what I believe are a fired QSPR. The thing which at first glance looks like a projo, is probably the steel pusher disc having been stopped by the internal threads. The absence of any white caulking-type sealant also leads me to believe that this has been fired and it has been blown out. I imagine some people must think these are loaded since the steel anvil in place of the primer (which strikes the internal primer) looks like an unhit primer, and the steel pusher cup looks like a lead projo. Am I correct that this is fired? The total cartridge weight is 460gr exactly, and it is shown below next to a .44 magnum for scale. I also put the section diagram below:

Am I correct in assuming that an unfired example should have a plastic nose-plug threaded in place such as the diagram shows? Are there some unfired cartridges out there with just the white sealant and no nose-plug? There are a couple photos floating around which show reportedly unfired cases with sealer shown, but no nose plug inserted.