Question about 7.92 x 94mm Patronen 318


#21

Dutch, the list is dated 1940, so no grenade propelling cartridges by then.


#22

This seems like a relate-able topic. and here i see people that might know. i have a casing 13x94 NOT 13,2x92 TuF.
I have been told it was for the panzerbuchse 38, some grenade launcher and even for a plane but since not one story has been confirmed i come here.

20190110_150644 20190110_150631
In the last pic its the one on the left (duh) next to 2 .318’s


#23

To keep the characteristics of Patrone 318 secret, the troops were issued training barrels for a 13 mm cartridge.
The short lifespan of 300 rounds for a 7.9 mm barrel 318 may also have been a consideration. See my message above, where the corresponding 13 mm cartridges are mentioned as items 8 and 9.
The model designation 318 (when read backwards: 13 and 8) was derived from the two calibers.


#24

#25


Here are my two ex cardidges and one werkzeug cardidge


#26

I found two Tribepatrone 318 rounds in the 10 brass shells I bought.

The wood projectile fell inside the shell.

So that’s right, these rounds are reassembled by the K98 projectile.

What is the average price of the patrone 318?

I am curious about where people in Europe or America usually go to find ammunition collections?

Local/Internet auctions?
Or trade between collectors?

It’s really hard to find a source in Asia.


#27

I am in doubt about the brass cased propelling cartridge as the hs is way too early for this and also the projectile looks self made. Also confirmed propelling cartridges have steel cases.

Plenty of these blank cases were found at a German prooving ground and were sold by the bucket.
I assume many eager hands completed/invented all sort of new and “scarce” loads.
One should study all available documentation on the subject and talk to some experts before burning money and make questionable dealers rich.


#28

I am fully agreed with @eod

The cartridges I know have steel cases.

DSC_0003

To compare the wooden bullet I made a picture for you.

DSC_0005

Rgds


#29

I also have a brass cased version of these with almost the same headstamp as TONY416900s example, only difference being mine is marked 20a.
It doesn’t look like a put together to me as the case mouth is coned,the same as the steel versions, in addition to three stab crimps at the junction of the case shoulder/ neck to seat the small wood bullet on,which is identical to the example Dutch shows us only a lot darker,both of these features can be made out on TONY416900s example also.
They must have realised that this Anti Tank rifle was fairly useless against the armour of the time so could existing stocks of AP rounds have been converted to grenade blanks?

Tony


#30

Tony, the problem is that huge amounts of blank cases (bullets burned or rotten away) with the correct crimp for wooden bullets were found and that eager people even started taking normal 7.9x57 propelling cartridges apart to stuff the bullets into the 318 cases and create fancy cartridges (i.e. fantasy fakes).
So the fact that there is more than one of these is just evidence for the greediness of some people.


#31

This is the wood projectile I found in another brass case(headstamp is 1939).
Because it is easy to take out, I can’t make sure this is the original pairing.

As shown, it has rotted and the inside is hollow.

I can’t pull the wood projectile that I showed yesterday from the brass case. (It is caught by a brass shell)

So I can’t do the comparison.


#32

Hi EoD,
please forgive me but you have ‘lost me’ a bit with your reply…so if these cases were found with the correct crimp for wooden bullets with 1941 dated headstamps then,to me, it would indicate that the Treibpatrone 318 was ‘around’ in 1941 and that brass cases were also used?..or was there a Platzpatrone 318 also?
I do understand your point about people ‘stuffing’ the wrong bullets into them, I have myself seen 7.9x57 Platzpatrone bullets in 318 cases before now.

Tony


#33

It is original bullet it’s for granade launching if you need to shoot it prom rifle blank projectiles are longer.


#34

Gentleman,

Nothing is impossible, but I have never heard about transforming Patrone 318 SmK-H Rs Lspur to propellant cartridges.

Now I would like to show what Wikipedia tells about this rifle:

Starting in 1942, remaining PzB 39 rifles were rebuilt with a shortened barrel (590 mm) and an affixed Schiessbecher (“firing cup”) attachment threaded to the barrel and used to launch standard rifle grenades. The cup was the standard type used with the ubiquitous Kar 98k infantry rifle and the ammunition was also interchangeable; there were three types of grenades: an anti-personnel grenade, a light anti-tank grenade and a large-diameter anti-tank grenade. The grenades were propelled by a special cartridge with a wood bullet. The rifle was also outfitted with a special sighting arrangement for firing up to 150 m and the wooden forend was removed. These converted rifles received the designation Granatbüchse Modell 39 (GrB 39) and remained in use until the end of the war.

This means, before 1942 they did not need this round.

Rgds
Dutch


#35

From the Woodin Lab


#36

Many thanks Dutch,
the thing that is worrying me is that if these brass cased propellant cartridges are construed as fakes that many will be ‘got rid of’ or destroyed and as you show in your post the ‘in 1942 the remaining rifles were converted to grenade launchers’ so I ask myself what happened to the remaing stocks of Pat SmK-HRs L’Spur ammunition?,to me due to cost ect it would make sense to convert them to grenade blanks.
I have found another example of these brass cased cartridge on the net,now I’m fully aware that the internet isn’t the most reliable means to get correct and accurate info but it shows a 1938 dated brass case and 1941 brass washed steel case…both far too early to be purpose made

http://www.municion.org/patrone318/patrone318.htm

Tony


#37

Tony,

I know this side.
The problem is, you must be very careful with items published on the internet.
I would say that many of the showed 318 items are not as they came out of the factory.
For example, there is an item showed as; Pz, Panzergeschoß, Proyectil super-perforante.

About this bullet; HWA give Rheinmetall-Borsig in Berlin an order in Mai 1941 to produce 20 000 bullets without using lead. HWA ordered also the 7,9 cases (eej S* 6 42) and Rheinmetall made these cartridges.

The test for replacing the SmK bullet without the use of any lead components was not successful, and that’s it.
Now it is surprising for me to see this bullet on a 318 case of 1939.

I hope you know what I mean.

Rgds
Dutch


#38

Tony, the cartridges “318” in stock when the AT rifle was declared obsolete were destroyed as Germany was cut off it’s Tungsten supplies. Basically all TC cored ammo was taken back (also regular 7.92x57 and all large calibers - with one exception: 37x265B ammo for the air craft mounted “BK 3,7cm” operated by Hans-Ulrich Rudel the famous tank hunter who destroyed over 700 vehicles with his Ju-87) and the cores were recovered to reuse the material for other more urgent needs.

And as brass was also in short supply they sure recycled the cases as well.


#39

I don’t know if the panzer geschoss on web municion.org is original or not but the same is in the book


#40

This is an extremely interesting topic. I spent 35+ years working in the logistics side of a military bureaucracy. Personally, I would never express an opinion on what was done or not done as an absolute. I have been constantly surprised at what happens. I saw turbine blades for a military engine that were also identical to those used in a commercial engine. Although the blades were still l required for military use, congress declared they must be surplus and disposed of. An attempt was made to use them in place of repaired blades but it was declared that the military customer must pay more for his repaired engine if it received the new blades, even though they were due to be sent to an organization for disposal. Simply disposing of the blades needing repair was not allowed. In addition the new blades had to be crushed before being sent for disposal because they were government property. This was all contested to senior authority and it was decided that none of the rules could be waived. Not surprisingly the barrels wound up filled with the new blades with a thin covering of crushed blades and sold as scrap. A buyer in the know bought them and they wound up in engines!

Sad but true story.

The point of the story is that rules often yield illogical results. I don’t know anything useful to the 318 discussion above, but I do know that 1937 Polte brass cases were sent to emp for loading in 1943, rather than to be recycled. I can think of a number of reasons that 1941 cases sitting around could be later shipped to be loaded as blanks. Like the 1937 Polte brass cases I mentioned, it far from unknown for cases to be loaded years after their production. Some of the discussion above seems built on the unstated assumption that the ammunition load date is the same as the date on the headstamp which is not always true as can be seen on quite a few German boxes.

I understand that this caliber has attracted those who fake ammunition. I also know of a number of cases where extremely rare and totally correct ammunition was destroyed as FAKE, just because someone speculated with some logic that it wasn’t correct.

It is also a good idea to be careful of an “expert”, myself included myself, in this hobby. I try to include “I think” or “I believe” rather than stating absolutes. Theories are fine, but they should be clearly stated as theories. Unless there is true proof.

One collector’s opinion.

Lew