Question about Swedish 7.62 x 51


#1

The Swedish 7.62 x 51 (bullet 10 prj) weighs 9.5 g. Does anyone know the radius of the ogive? I am interested to find out whether it is more similar to U.S./UK/French bullets that have a secant ogive or more like the Belgian SS77/ German DM41 having a tangent ogive.

The website on Swedish Ammunition that I know does not go into this detail.

By the way, is there a desing change associated with the change from “10 prj” to “10 nprj” or is it just a name change from bullet to normal bullet ?

Any information much appreciated.

P.S. The bullet in question is the lead cored version in use around 1990.


#2

I’m not an expert on Swedish cartridges, but I live close to the subject matter, understand the language and also have some useful documentation.
Comparing the various bullet ogives is something I’ll leave up to you. I have an official Swedish training poster dated 1968 which shows “prj 10” and also calls it “normalprojektil”. Presumably this is to distinguish it from other “special” bullets, such as tracer.
The abbreviation “prj” stands for the Swedish word “projektil”, which is “projectile” in English.
In a list of Swedish military abbreviations from around 2000 I find “nptr” “translated” to “normalpatron”, meaning “normal cartridge”. In Swedish ammunition manuals they also list some commercial 7.62x51 cartridges. I guess the term “nptr” is therefore used to indicate the original “ptr 10” (cartridge no.10).
I also have a copy of a factory drawing dated 1964 of “ptr 10”. If you send me your email address, I’ll send some scans. My name is listed under Norway.


#3

The use of the Term “NORMAL” (as in Normal Patron or Patrone) in Germanic and Skandinavian Languages, does not equal the English “Normal” ( ie, usual or common) but the English “Standard”, ie, to a set, regular Pattern. This was first a characteristic of the 8,15x46R SCHUETZEN Cartridge, introduced in the 1880s, for the Serviceman’s Training Rifle (“Wehrmanns Gewehr”) for use by Reservists at Range Practice in Rifle Clubs, to which they were expected to belong whilst on the “Reserve List” It is listed as the 8,15x46R NORMAL-Patrone in German Catalogues from before WW I, and on Packet Labels and in Literature. This clearly indicates a “Standard” Civilian cartridge for use by Rifle Clubs etc.

Thus whilst usually mistranslated as “Normal” ( ie, usual or common) its true meaning in Cartridge speak is “Standard” or “Pattern” cartridge. Word derives from “The Norm” ( Latin Norma) meaning, the set or fixed manner of doing things ( of course in different areas (such as Mathematics,) it has an expanded meaning, meaning “The most common”).

In the case in Point, “nptr” is actually “Standard Cartridge” in design etc., from which other variants are derived…it may be “common”, but it is “Standard.” or “Set ( or sealed) Pattern”

Normal (usual) translations don’t always convey the true Technical meaning…especially in Ordnance.

Doc AV


#4

Thank you both for your responses, although the ogive radius remains a riddle.


#5

The German “Normal” is the not fully pronounced word for “normalisiert” (normed) and relates to the old days when one certain caliber was not loaded to specific parameters and varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and also came with a variety of chamber pressures. This at some point had to lead to problems which finally were overcome by the first standardized loading data for calibers so every gun maker and shooter could rely on only one standard for one caliber (let alone the sights and range settings).
So the “Norm” in German was basically the first kind of CIP.

The “Norm” in Scandinavia seemingly applies only to the projectiles and might be something like “regular ball”.

One of the Scandinavian experts certainly can shed more light onto this language issue.


#6

In the Norwegian military, ball ammo/FMJ is called «skarp» (lit. translation «sharp»), as in «live». A steel ammunition box would therefore be marked something like this:

1305-25-149-6300 (NATO stock number)
1000 (quantity
PATRON 9mmx19 SKARP (item, in this case «CARTRIDGE 9mm x 19 LIVE»)
BLYFRI NM223 (type, in this case «Lead-free Norwegian Model 223»)
• (standard NATO symbol for ammunition, the dot is obviously ball. A line would mean tracer, and so on)

The swedes do have some very strange naming traditions for both ammunition and weaponry. They are the guys who call their MGs «bullet spitting guns»! (Kulsprutegevär)
Swedish ammunition manufacturing plant Norma has little to do with the word normal/normaliserad, it is named after Bellini’s play.

I do believe I have seen older boxes of practice/target shooting rounds marked «normal». This might have been 6,5 x 55 mm, however someone else will have to verify.

Edit:
Our 20-round NM60* cardboard boxes are marked with only their NATO symbol (•).

*Norsk Modell 60, our old 7,62 x 51 mm NATO ball ammunition patterned after German DM41 «Weichkern» ball


#7

From the use in modern (2002) Swedish field manuals it is quite obvious that “nprj” is used in the sense of regular ball, while tracer is “sl prj”, for example.
The old (1993) abbreviation for regular ball was “prj” and I wanted to make sure that going from prj to nprj did not imply some sort of technical model change.
Regarding Norm in a more general sense I side with EOD. The first “Normalhülsen” dimensions (maximum values) were agreed upon in 1909 and published 1910 in the journal Schuss und Waffe: calibers were 8,15x46; 9,3x72; 10,75x68 and “Mod 88/8”. The latter was at the time the name for what we today know as 8x57 I (not IS). Cases manufactured according to these specifications had to have NORM in the headstamp. For example, the maximum neck diameter for M88/8 was 8.88 mm while today CIP says 8.99 mm.


#8

Since tennsats mentioned target ammo, I’ll add the Dansk Ammunitionsfabrik / Otterup ‘Normalpatron’ which were their standard training 6,5x55 cartridge. Iirc they had green labels on the 20 round cardboard boxes.
If I remember or this thread is still live when I get home, I’ll post a pic of a ‘Normalpatron’ box.
Soren


#9

Here is one of the latest 7.62 boxdesign in Swedish army. No nprj, just 10 prj.

The ammo is made by factory 633 (GGG) in 2013 and the bullet is the same as commercial ggg in 308 = not the same as old CG/070 (Vanäsverken) made bullets.

//Jimmy


#10


DM41 vs. 10 prj.
Both from cartridges made in 1992.


#11

Theoak,
the left bullet in my view is a DM111 (tin coated, gilding-clad steel jacket, steel plate covering the lead core at the base) pollutant reduced bullet. It was indeed introduced around 1992.
Its identically shaped predecessor DM41 has the same color as the 10 prj on the right.