Question for 9 para specialists


I have to date a catalogue.
Could you try to give me the minimum and the maximum year with the help of the following picture.


Only the minimum year is interesting me, excuse me


J-P - your question is still not clear. The minimum year for what? When it cartridge started in production? When the 9mm Para first started being loaded with a truncated bullet) or what? When this manufacturer made these two calibers? You did not tell us from what catalog the pictures came from. Please tell us the manufacturer and the date of the catalog.

I have to go out this morning, but if you provide this information, and no one else answers it, I will answer you when I return this afternoon.

If all you want to know is when the 9mm Para was introduced, it is 1902 (like anything, it is possible test batches of ammo were made up slightly earlier, of course, but serial production started that year). The 9mm Glisenti was introduced in 1910. the same comments apply for it as to test ammunition.

Even if this answers your question, I would still like to know the date of the catalog and the maker. It is possible that if you can, I could use a scaqn of that catalog, or if too big, at least of the metallic cartridge portions and the title page and cover.

John Moss


It seems now that I reread the question, it is the catalogue you want to date. In my opinion, the earliest date it could be is 1910, when the Glisenti cartridge was introduced. the 9mm Parabellum was introduced later. However, without knowing what company the catalog is from, there is no way to know if they introduced the 9mm Para before the Glisenti, or after. The 9mm Para cartridge came first, but not necessarily with whatever company this is in italy.

It is referring to the 9mm Glisenti Pistol as “new Italian Ordnance” so I would suspect that the catalog came out not much later than 1910, when that pistol was officially adopted.

John Moss


Hi John !
this is picture was extracted from a Fiocchi catalogueof unknown date.
But before 1923 for sure.

I would like to date this catalogue and one of the way I have found is the picture of my post. (It is coming from a page I can send you of course if you need).
Because of the fact there are these two ctges shown you can tell me perhaps what is the minimum year of this catalogue.

You said :

  1. Serial production of 9 para started in Germany in 1902, so the minimum year is 1902.
  2. Introduction of the Glisenti ctge is 1910, so the minimum year is 1910.

Because of that we can assume the minimum year of this catalogue is 1910.

Now, Perhaps somebody knows how many years between the adoption of Glisenti in 1910 and the fact we can find the ctge in a commercial catalogue.

I have another indice in my other post regarding the short range Carcano.
I have no idea when it was introduced.
(Perhaps it is before 1910 and it is useless, or perhaps it is after 1910 and this will give a more accurate date of this catalogue).