Question on German 9mm Navy box ca 1910


#1

One of the difficult boxes for me to find was the box used by the German Navy. The Navy adopted the 9mm Luger as the M1904 pistol, though production started later. Until at least 1914 the Navy bought ammunition from DWM and had it packed in their own distinctive box. From an earlier thread, at sometime during WWI the Navy appears to have bought their ammunition in 50 round boxes, but no 50 round boxes nor any boxes dated after 1914 have been found that can be identified to the German Navy. The previous thread (on U Boat containers for 9mm ammunition) indicate that during WWII the Navy adopted the designation “P08” for the 9mm Luger cartridges. Below is a typical Navy box from DWM, this one from 1912.

In going through some of my old photos I found a strangly marked Navy box that contained cartridges headstamped DWM K 8 10 (some marked 9 10), with “U” stamped where the loading information is usually stamped.

I suspect this marking indicated that the loading data is unknown. Can anyone confirm this or give the actual meaning of this marking?

I have forgotten where I took this photo. Has anyone out there got this or a similar box, or seen one?

Thanks,

Lew


#2

Lew, I’m pretty sure it refers to “Uttendorfer”, the precedessor of RWS.

Looks like they supplied most of the components, bullets, powder and primers.


#3

Interesting Idea!!! I had not considered that explaination.

The fact that it is a DWM box and DWM cases, why would the load date, powder type & date and the primer date be marked “Uttendorfer”?

I think Grotzinger is the location of the DWM powder factory back then.

Cheers,

Lew


#4

Is Utendoerffer a plausible supplier of propellant? Jack


#5

[quote=“Lew”]Interesting Idea!!! I had not considered that explaination.

The fact that it is a DWM box and DWM cases, why would the load date, powder type & date and the primer date be marked “Uttendorfer”?

I think Grotzinger is the location of the DWM powder factory back then.

Cheers,

Lew[/quote]
I don’t think that DWM needed help loading these.

I remember when Lew’s collecting life ambition was to find a 1904 box. Looks like he did ! Success !


#6

Lew,

For sure the U on the label means “Unknown” in German ( Unbekannt)

451kr,


#7

[quote=“Lew”]Interesting Idea!!! I had not considered that explaination.

The fact that it is a DWM box and DWM cases, why would the load date, powder type & date and the primer date be marked “Uttendorfer”?

I think Grotzinger is the location of the DWM powder factory back then.

Cheers,

Lew[/quote]

In 1888 Wilhelm Lorenz bought a peace of land in Grötzingen to build a shooting range for his Karlsruhe factory.
It was sold in 1890 to Ludwig Löwe who had permission building a loading facility and a powder store house in an old sand pit on the property.
In1897 the Durlacher primer facility went to Grötzingen.

The company’s name was that time “Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken Karlsruhe”.
65 persons were working 1907 in the Grötzingen facility.

They never made powder.

Rgds
Dutch


#8

Dutch, Thanks! I should stop writing things on the Forum before I look them up in my books. I know that info is in my book on 50 years of DWM, but of course that book is in German where my comprehension is about 10%.

Since Grotzinger is a loading facility, I guess the label is indicating that the cartridge was assembled at Grotzinger on the date indicated at the top of the far right panel of the label.

I had just assumed that the ammunition was assembled at the main plant.

Thanks for the info.

Lew


#9

No problem, your personal trainer is coming to Saint Louis. We meet at the bar. -:)

Dutch


#10

[quote=“Lew”]Dutch, Thanks! I should stop writing things on the Forum before I look them up in my books. I know that info is in my book on 50 years of DWM, but of course that book is in German where my comprehension is about 10%.

Since Grotzinger is a loading facility, I guess the label is indicating that the cartridge was assembled at Grotzinger on the date indicated at the top of the far right panel of the label.

I had just assumed that the ammunition was assembled at the main plant.

Thanks for the info.

Lew[/quote]

Can you get any idea of the date of this box from the label ?


#11

Lew, it is hard to say to which period of time this label format belongs and is interesting because of the designation “9 mm Patr. f. Pistole 04” instead of “9 mm Patr. f. Pistole C/04”. It could be pre-1910 but the only contradictory evidence with this statement is that there is another one marked “9 mm Patr. f. Pistole 04” known to exist with non German gothic letters and a October 1914 date. I also believe that the “U” indicates “Unbekannt”.

To make things more complicated the one labeled “9 mm Patr. f. Pistole C/04” also exist loaded in August 30, 1910 (powder lot No. 1657 from 1910). Maybe we have two contemporary labels or maybe the unused old labels were kept stocked for years. By the way. have you ever seen C/04 boxes with a post-1914 date?

The earliest packet is probably the one marked “16 Stück 9 m/m scharfe Patronen zur Selbstladepistole 1904”. It’s also worthy of mention that the designation used by DWM in the pistol manual was “Selbstlade-Pistole “Parabellum” Marine-Modell 1904”.


#12

Here a picture of some normal boxes

rgds


#13

Odd that a serious maker would not know where their components came from.


#14

The added inscriptions are not supposed to indicate the origin of the components, only the dates of loading, powder and primer.


#15

Dutch, Thanks for the photo. Below are my two boxes. As you can see both of these have the date on the front label where most of these have the year part of the date wrapped around the end and lost like your bottom box

Fede is correct, there are four different styles of German Navy boxes I know of. The first is the style you showed me. It will also be illustrated in Geoff Sturgess’ new book to come out this summer, not the CGP version which is pretty bad by comparison. About 1800+ pages on the Borchardt and Luger pistols including almost 200 pages on the ammo. Apparently this box was filled with cartridges headstamped DWM K 480C K with serifs. It is clearly 1910 or earlier and is the earliest military style Navy label I have documented. The earliest “DWM K month year” style headstamp I have documented is April 1909 and I suspect that the Navy probably went to the military style label about this time so this box could predate 1909.

I have the two boxes below in my collection. Note the one on the bottom says “Pistole C/04” and is dated 1911. The one on the top, if you look carefully, has the same “Pistol 04” marking that Dutch’s top box does, which is also dated 1914.

The standard Navy box in my original post is not in my collection but it also has the “C/04” marking and is dated 1912. I have other photos in my file for 1914 dated boxes and all have just the “04” marking. The “U” marked box in my original post is the only one I have documented which uses the old style German script. It must date from about 1910 or early 1911 since the cases in it are dated August and September 1910. By August 1911 and through at least through July 1912 (date on standard box in my first post) the “C/04” was used (I also know of an Oct 1911 dated box). I haven’t documented any 1913 dated boxes but have documented a number of 1914 boxes and all just use the “04” marking.

I have never seen or heard of a box later than the 1914 date or earlier than the 1910 date (with the “U”)

That gives us four different styles of Navy boxes. Since we are this far, what other Navy box dates and styles are out there. Post them, ideally with photos, and we will all be smarter.

Dutch, can you read the year on your bottom label? It appears to have a “C/04” marked out.

Cheers,

Lew


#16

Fede, Going back and reading your 1st note, I under stand you have an August 1910 dated box label! I would love to have a scan posted on this thread.

I agree with you. I can’t imagine DWM using anyone elses components in this time-frame. As far as I can tell, only DWM and Spandau (from November 1909) were making 9x19mm components in 1909 and 1910. The earliest Dresden and Ingolstadt headstamps I have are both April 1911. The “U” marked box was filled with DWM cases and in the fall of 1910, only Spandau could have made bullets, but why would DWM have used Spandau items. One was a private company and the other was a government arsenal. I agree with you and 451kr that it simply means Unbekannt or unknown for the loading data.

Cheers,

Lew


#17

Lew, I only have this picture:

Cheers,

Fede


#18

Even more odd that they would not know their own stock .


#19

I think by unknown they are not talking about the origin of their stock, which was all DWM, but rather the specific date of manufacturer. These were likely loose ammunition that was loaded but for some reason not packed immediately and the loading data lost. When they were later packed, the date data was marked “Unknown”. I’ve been told this sort of ammo was used for training or internally in the factory for guards, etc. There was a discussion of these type of German boxes at:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11941&p=85113#p85113
and http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11846&start=0

Cheers,
Lew

Fede: thanks for the great photo.


#20

Reminds me of Sgt. Schultz from Hogan’s heroes; they know NOTHING.