Question on M1 carbine ammo


#1

did the US goverment ever make incendiary tracers for the M1 carbine?
or how about just regular incendiary ammo?

ive only seen tracers and ball ammo for the carbinne. i was wondering what other type of ammo was made for it.
thanks


#2

I do not know of any incendiary ammunition ever made for the M1 Carbine by the U.S. Govt. Ther was ordinary ball, tracer, grenade launching cartridges for which there was also a little booster cartridge, drill rounds (dummies) and Armor Piercing. The latter never reached widespread issue, maybe not any issue at all, I am not sure. They are very scarce and there were several types, all equally scarce. Regular blanks were made in some other countries - Norway, for example - but I don’t recall an American military blank (the Grenade launching rounds are not “blanks” in the sense of a training cartidge) off hand. There were also proof loads, made by substituting the bullet from military .30 Model of 1906 for the lighter carbine bullet. They were single loaded, and not an item of general issue, of course. When I say “substituted,” I mean by by the factories that made them; I don’t mean they were some some of field expedient. There were several patterns of the drill rounds. Cases were made in both brass and steel. Aside from the Grenade launching cartridges with came in small, flat packets of small quantity, ammo was usually packed 50 rounds to a box. Because of its light construction, the M1 Carbine was not a very good grenade launching platform.


#3

thanks for the reply.
i had no clue on the AP round.


#4

I understand that an Incendiary AP bullet was done experimentally by FA. I only know this because the bullet was scaled up by FA as an API bullet in 9mm for the CIA and is described in the upcoming book by Woodin et.al.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

The Carbine Cal .30 Blank Cartridge existed in test configurations as the FAT1 and, later, as the T79. They were not very different than the Carbine Cal .30 Grenade Cartridge, the T6, which was adopted as the M6.

There was also a Frangible Cartridge, the T69.

Ray


#6

Interesting! Hope this book comes out soon. It is sorely needed. I had never heard of even experimental incendiary loads for the carbine. Well, I guess they experimented with just about everything, so I should have guessed it, I suppose. Does anyone know if it ever reached any degree of issue, even for simply field trials and nothing else?

Ray, I forgot about the test blanks. I don’t think I ever knew about the Frangible. I collect the M1 Carbine cartridge because of the Kimball self-loading pistol and the SMG made in the Dominican Republic, but it is a half-hearted effort, a real “step-child” in my cartridge collection. What little knowledge I have of the cartridge is more from being armed with an M2 Carbine for 18 months, in the Army. I guess I should study it more!


#7

Squeezing enough mixture into that tiny carbine bullet in order to produce an effective I, IT, or APIT, is asking a lot. Not even the larger Cal .30 (30-06) was big enough.

The carbine was purpose built for plain vanilla Carbine Cal .30 Ball ammunition. You get nothing by trying to make it into anything else. But, that didn’t keep them from trying. ;-)

JMHO

Ray


#8

FWIW, the Soviets did produce an API loading for the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge, not to mention API and I-T loadings for the 7.62x39 round.

A Tokarev API cutaway:


#9

The Cal .30 Incendiary M1 was discontinued in 1943, and the API M14 saw little use after WW 2. Why? They simply were not effective.

Ray


#10

The M6 Grenade blank is hard to distinguish from the T79 Blank, as they both have a 5 petal rose crimp with red paint on tip. The T79 has 5 petal rose crimp and red paint on the tip, but it is tapered rounder at the tip to simulate a ball round so it can feed semi and full auto. Which it was designed to be fired full auto.There is other experimental grenade loading’s with 3 petal crimps and smooth tapered crimps with wads inside. The M6 also has a wad inside.

Joe


#11

Joe

The FA drawing for the T1/T79 Blank cartridge specifies a drop of red lacquer on the wad and approx 3/16" of red vermillion lacquer on the case mouth. The drawing for the M6 Grenade Cartridge specifies only a closing wad with a drop of red (vermillion) lacquer. That is one reason these are often confused. HWS II drawings of the two are in conflict with the FA drawings. I’m not smart enough to know which is correct and I don’t collect Carbine Cal .30 so I’m not inclined to spend the time necessary to find out.

Ray


#12

For other than ball, blank (inc. Noise & Grenade) & tracer.

Three AP variations l-r headstamps - F A 45, F A 45, and F A 47.

The silver tipped l -r - F A 45 & F A 46. The FA 45 silver tip is a Cal. .30 Carbine Spotting Cartridge - see HWS Vol. 2 pg 51.

The FA 46 is an incendiary as I’ve been led to believe, waiting for Vol 3 like everyone else.


#13

Ray,

Yes, I looked and HWS II drawings of the two, and agreed they are in conflict with the FA drawings. So go figure. Picture below left to right is FA 46 and FA 47, next two are WCC 43’s one with a dab of paint on tip and none on internal wad and second with obvious red paint and more of a tapper for possible auto feeding. I always figured the WCC 43 less paint more open crimp was a T6 / M6 and the other with more tapered crimp and red paint was a FAT1 / T79??

Joe


#14

Ray,

What are the headstamps on yours?

Joe


#15

Pete,

Nice cartridges.
Joe


#16

Joe

T1/T79 Blank is LC 45. M6 Grenade Cartridge is LC 44.

Ray


#17

Also have this fired “L C 6 8” I need more info on. Waiting for the new book also. The way it bulged, leads me to believe it was loaded hot or launched a grenade.

Joe


#18

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Joe

T1/T79 Blank is LC 45. M6 Grenade Cartridge is LC 44.

Ray[/quote]

Ray, does one have more of a taper to the crimp than the other?

joe


#19

Joe

As you can see in my photo, the Blank appears to be closed more than the Grenade which I suppose you could say results in more taper. But I would not bet any money on it.

The drawing I have for the T1 Blank shows a Section A-A through the crimp with a .285" radius. The drawing for the M6 Grenade has no such detail.

It’s too bad that Gene S. is no longer with us. He could have filled in a lot of detail, provided he could have found the original drawings in one of his many stacks of “stuff”. I assume the drawings are now at the Lab. Maybe you can make a trip over there and see what you can find?

Ray


#20

Joe, is that fired case a .30 Carbine or a 5.56x45?