Question "S 10 08" 7,63x25


#1

A collector friend has described to me a 20 round original German Packet,
holding Two 10 round clips, of what seems to be 7,63x25 C96 cartridges, with the 120 degree headstamp as Above, The packet label is in German Fraktur, and he could decifer “Selbslader Pistole” and not much else.

As the “S” and tripartite dates are an early Spandau Arsenal (GewehrFabrik)
headstamp, is this an official Imperial Issue ammunition in the pre-WW I days???I do know that Mauser was vying for the German Army Pistol contract, at about the same time that the Pistole “08” (Luger) was adopted; could it be a trial run by Spandau to make Trials ammo for the trials C96 Pistols ( NS–New Safety" Type???)

Has anybody come across any similar “S” marked 7,63x25 C96 ammo (I know DWM (DM) made the majority of Commercial 7,63 ammo, but did any of the Imperial factories make any as well? or is this just a “one off” run (a) for trials and (b) to see if they could make it.???

I will have the Packet to examine next week and can scan and send a Print of it…the Fraktur printing seems to be similar to a “Military” type packet Label, from the description…over the phone.

Ah, the expectation!!!

Any info gratefully received.

Happy Easter/Passover,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#2

Hello, I can’t help a lot but On philipe regenstreif’s books, there are also:
DM 2 18 S67
RM S 11 18.
Hope it can help


#3

The “S” headstamped 7.63 x 25mm Mauser cartridges are definitely a product of the K


#4

Finally got to see the Box of Spandau-made cartridges.

I couldn’t scan the box, but here is a description:
Box made of Faux-wood cardboard, with corner steel gussets; an internal softwood separator,held by a steel tab at each end thru the wall of the box; bottom with perforated nesting for bullet tips, Hinged Lid with draw strap, and not(ever) sealed.
Contents: Two “DM” marked 10 round clips, each holding ten “S 11 07” headstamped cases with FMJ RN Nickel plated bullets.
Both clips and Cartridges very slightly aged, but otherwise “like new”

Label on box:
All print in German Fraktur type: (dark Blue Print)

20 Scharfe Patr. z. Selbslader Pist.
Gefertigt Oktober 1908
im Munitionsfabrik Spandau
…Ges 5…, ; Zdh. 08

( 20 Military/jacketed Cartridges for Self Loader Pistol
Assembled October 1908
In Spandau Munitions Factory
…Bullet Lot 5… Primer (“Zundhutchen”) Lot 08 or Type 1908)

NO indication of Calibre, or other common German Ammunition information, as seen on later Labels.

Found in a sale here in Australia, Possibly a WW I souvenir? or even a pre- WW I Purchase from the Mauser/DWM agents in Melbourne, who did a roaring trade in C96 pistols from 1898 to the First World War ( over 400 pistols sold in 1901-1902 alone, the height of the new Australian Federation’s involvement in the Boer War); The Guns were so popular that even the Commonwealth Customs service after WW I adopted some for service in sea patrols off the Coast of the Northern Territory (Javanese Smugglers and Pirates). Many were souvenired during WW I, being more efficient than British-type revolvers, and excellent for “Trench Raids” and “Prisoner Hunts” at which the Aussies excelled.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#5

John
The ammo related bit of the Hague Convention is in the one adapted July 29, 1899, “where the contracting parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten on the human body” and was a follow on to the Declaration of St. Petersburg in 1868

Than there was the Hague Convention IV in 1907 which states "it is expressly forbidden to employ arms, projectles or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering"
thegunzone.com/hague.html


#6

Tailgunner - the older I get, the more I forget about these various dates of conventions, etc. thanks for posting the information here. Hard to explain the soft-nose bullets in Spandau rounds (not a commercial manufacturer) and in the dated DWM rounds. Why date them if not military - DWM already made a variety of loads in this caliber without a date on the headstamp?

The DWM dated rounds seem to be found more in Southern Africa than anywhere else. The Spandau rounds seem to found in Australia more than anywhere else. My SN round is from there and I have been promised a FMJ round from there a long time ago. The logistics of getting it here seem to be difficult. Just observations of where I have heard of the most of these dated Mausers - I am certainly NOT drawing any positive conclusion about them.

Interesting rounds. My blank is the earliest dated .30 Mauser round I have in my own collection or have seen. The first actual .30 Mauser headstamp was likely, as it was in 9m/m Parabellum, “* D.M. * K.”


#7

John,
Would that also be the first headstamp, in 7.65 Luger?
Thanks,
sam


#8

Sam - I would think so. The Swiss were playing with that cartridge very early - I think the prototype Lugers for Switzerland go to 1899 or perhaps a year earlier, but DWM had such a strong relationship with the gun companies in Germany, and of course, the Luger (or Pistole Parabellum) was their own pistol, so I would think that they would have made the first cartridges for it. It is likely that the very first rounds were unheadstamped, as were, we believe, the very first Mauser cartridges, but the first real serial production would have had the * D.M. * K. headstamp I am pretty sure. DWM continued to use that headstamp for a while on pistol ammunition even after the Deutsche Metallwerken name was no more, and used DM on military 7.9 ammunition through the end of WWI.


#9

JM
Not a problem.
As I suffer from a bad case of CRS (can’t remember stuff), I depend on Google to locate information like this for me.
Always happy to help where I can.