R P .45acp headstamp with no dash

Does anyone know when this headstamp would have been in use as far as dash or no-dash, etc…? For it to make sense with where it supposedly came from (as I was told), it would need to be pre-1963:

DK - I cannot supply a date, and unfortunately, Remington .45 boxes for that headstamp (and others) have no lot numbers on them (that I could find, anyway). I can tell you that they are in the first of the Green boxes, with white “Remington” in an elongated red rectangular background. All print on top label in white, when they enlarged the box for the styrofoam inserts. The first boxes of that general pattern were 5-1/2" by 2-3/4" approximate, and had a cardboard insert. The box for the rounds with no dash on the headstamp are 6" x 3" with the styrofoam insert, and also seem to be the earliest Remington boxes with the “Keep Out of the Reach of Children” advice.

I have two of those boxes for the 230 Grain FMJ, identical to each other save for the wording on the back label.

Hope this helps a little in dating it.

I have always wished that when I was cataloging my cartridges, that I had entered the date of acquisition of all of them. With the “then-new” commercial stuff, it would not guarantee an accurate introduction date, but it would be “ballpark” anyway.

The lack of the dash on these means military use, or so I was told. The same headstamp can be seen on the ,38 Special in tracer and full patch ball loads which are seen in military boxes.

Ok, thanks. But it must be known that these didn’t exist before a certain date roughly, such as not before 1960 or not before 1950 I presume?

Pete - I am not aware of the documentation behind the lack of a dash on R P headstamps indicating military use. If there is some, I would love to get a copy of it for my files. I can tell you that ammunition without the dash was also available commercially. Both my boxes were purchased by me, for the headstamps, at our own store, from shelf stock. Both of the boxes I mentioned are commercial, and the rounds are in nickel cases. The military does not seem fond of nickel cases, part of the reason for which is that contemporary military proof loads have nickel brass. Interestingly, in 1968, I discovered one whole case of Remington .45 Ammo, nickel case, with the military headstamp R A 6 8 all of which was packed in normal commercial boxes of the time. It came to us through normal commercial channels. Of course I bought one box, and many of the collectors got that round from me.

By the way, I was wrong in my entry above. I do NOT have the R P headstamp with no dash in anything other than 230 FMJ. I have two different boxes for that, identical in labeling on three sides and the end tabs, but with a different back label printed on the box. I don’t know where I got the idea one was for the 185 WC loading. I must have been Hallucinating. I will edit that entry to reflect on the 230 grain bullet load. Sorry about that.

Hi John
No, no documentation, as I said “I was told”. Perhaps from some one who related the .38 Spl’s to the .45? It was so long ago I have no idea who told me this.

I also have only seen these in the green box.

I had just figured it might have been for a small run or someone with need / contract for specific packaging, such as the FBI. Just conjecture as to the reason explaining the green box with a so-called military headstamp.

I should clarify my above post regarding the .38 Spl. connection. The ca. 1960, “R P” is known with a wadcutter loading and a possible Mexican connection, but the “REM [no dash] UMC” ball and tracer are military. See Otto Witt Vol. 2 pg 256 and pg 248

The REM UMC with no dash exists in Remington as well. NO time right now to check and see if I have a box label with mine. My impression is, that like my R P .45, they came in a commercial box thru commercial channels. Again, my experience with that is no proof what-so-ever that they weren’t orignally intended for military or police use. Could just be the sale of over run production, or the product of a cancelled contract.

Based on John’s box description, I’d guess your 45 cartridge was loaded around 1962 to the early 1970s. The child warning was required from 1962 and I have a 9mm box like the one John describes in 45 which dates from 1970. Since in the 1960s, the 45 cartridge was much more popular with shooters than the 9mmL, I suspect the box style described was introduced on 45 before it was introduced in 9mmL. The box date codes in this era were typically printed in red on one of the end tabs, not stamped on the end flap or back of the box as was done earlier.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Lew

Ok, thanks all. The reason I asked is because I received the glass-tip .45acp cartridges I was expecting ( http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18154 ) and there were two versions - some were Peters brass case which would date from before the 60’s and could potentially be WWII vintage (I has assumed these glass-tip fragment-test loads were WWII related since it was to do with propeller aircraft) and the others were the above nickel plated cases with R P headstamp.

Since the old hand-written note with them says “rec’d 1963”, the R P case would need to be prior to that to be legitimate & original with that lot. It however then dictates that the notion of a propeller fragment test was done no earlier than 1960 based on what people seem to think about the headstamp vintage, which seems late to be fooling around with fragment loads for this purpose. It could have been for something like the AW Argosy, or a Blackburn Beverly (transports). This would also put the reception of these cartridges - by whomever the original collector or note-writer was, much closer to the supposed actual use of them in the UK.

A couple of Remington scans regarding the .45 and .38 without dashes. The ,45 is dated 1969 and the .38 Spl. is 1961

The Remington .45 Drawing is interesting in two ways. Firstly, the R A 7 1 and the MATCH headstamps I have never seen on a nickel case, although we do have the R A 6 8 on a nickel case. Second, the notation across the front of the drawing that they are nickel brass except for tracer and military would rule out the cartridge that started the discussion, which has a nickel case, as being a military headstamp.

Funny that they kind of put the cart before the horse with that notation, in that two of the three headstamps seldom appear on nickel cases (perhaps never in the case of the RA MATCH case, I simply don’t remember if I have seen one, or even have one, or not). You would think they would note the nickel case as an exception, not the brass cases. Oh well, who knows why these companies do the things they do.