R - P Headstamp Checklist


#1

There have been UMC and UMC S H and REM-UMC checklists done in the past, but I have not seen any checklists for R - P or R . P. Anyone know of one?

Assuming no one else has done one, I plan to attempt it, with all the Forum members helping. Before I go through the collection looking for them, I would like to establish what major variations there are. I know of the following:

RP No Dot or Dash Close Spacing Between letters

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R . P Dot (Centered Vertically) Close Spacing Between Letters

R . P Dot (Centered Vertically) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R (diamond) P Close Spacing Between Letters

R (Extra Wide Dash) P I have seen this only on .45 ACP

Does anyone know of any other variations? The dash lengths are from a Remington Factory Headstamp Drawing. The dates are Revision dates on that drawing.

Here are representative pictures of the spacing:

Close Spacing

Medium Spacing

Wide Spacing


#2

There are quite a number of quto pistol rounds, at least, with . R-P . headstamps (dot in front and behind the “R-P”). Common wisdom is that they are made in Mexico by Industrias Tecnos, but I don’t agree with that, as there is a caliber, 7.65 m/m Luger, that they say they never made in their history, although another Mexican company did. Another thing I have read is that it is Police ammunition. That is absolutely wrong. Virtually all calibers I have came right off the shelf at our store. The .30 Luger is the only one I had to wait for, since I couldn’t justify buying a full box to get one round. No gun to fire up the salvage.

I don’t have any positive answer for the two dots. I suspect a different case maker, but not Industrias Tecnos.


#3

John–Thanks for the addition to to the list. I had not seen that variation. Could you send me a scan of the headstamp and a list of what calibers you have seen it used on (including the bullet type & weight, if known)?


#4

Ron,is it possible that the spacing within R and P is due to the lenght of the cartridge name too?If so,various spacing headstamps could be of the same era


#5

Ron,

Sorry but I don


#6

Ron, In your listyou give measurements of .174, .040, & .015 is that the lenght of the dash or spacing between th R & p?I havea 45 Auto stamped R P without a dash or dot.The letters are spaced about .174 apart.What size do you mean when you say close, medium & wide spacing?


#7

Ron,

Here are some RP hsts on 9x19. One is the hst with dots that John mentioned. I know the REM-UMC headstamp with dots on 9x19 came from Industrias Tecnos, because a British collector got 3 or 4 different AP cartridges from the plant during a visit. All had the dots including the 9x19 he passed to me. Because of this I have suspected that the RP with dots is Mexican made also, but who knows. John makes a good point on the 7.65mmP.

The other two lack a dash or a dot. One is the equilivant of the 45 Auto Dutch posted and the other has no space between the letters which sounds like the first one you list.

The longest dash I could find on 9x19mm is 0.05 as I measure it. Are the dashes on pistol and rifle ammo different or the same???

Hope this helps. Please share the final list with up all.

Lew


#8

Pivi–No, the spacing does not seem to be dependent on the caliber. The same relative spacing variations can all be found for the same cartridge, such as .30-06 and each of the spacings are found on a wide variety of calibers.

Dutch–Thank you for the image of that .45 ACP. That makes two variations of the R P (No dot or dash), close and wide. Sorry about all the extra work I caused you. But, if you are like me, anytime I can “play” with my cartridges, it isn’t really work.

Spring1934–That is the length of the “Dash”. As for what is close, medium or wide spacing, I am just going by the look, not an exact measurement, as can be seen in the examples I showed. However, I am sure that Remington has an exact specification of the spacing defined in degrees of angle for each spacing. Here is the Factory Headstamp drawing I referred to; As you can see The spacing for the R P is 40 degrees off top center. To my eye, I would call this Wide spacing. Since the spacing is defined in degrees, not a linear measurement, the close, medium and wide spacing are all relative to the diameter of the head.

Lew-Thanks. This further supports what I said about the different variations occurring on the same caliber. As for wither or not they are different for Pistol and Rifle calibers, I would think they would not be different. Your measurement of 0.050 is most likely a variation of the factory specification of 0.040. The “ACTUAL” length, which is difficult to measure unless you have access to an Optical Comparator, would also be influenced by the depth of the headstamp strike.


#9

When did Remington start to use R P in the headstamp? 1960?


#10

That’s some serious drawing. Never considered the ‘‘science’’ that went into headstamping. Now some guy sits at a keyboard, punches in the specs and a machine across the country produces it.
Drawings? We don’t need no stinkin’ drawings!
Progress.


#11

Here is a revised list of the R-P headstamp varations we now have: Any More?

RP No Dot or Dash Close Spacing Between letters

RP No Dot or Dash Wide Spacing Between letters

R - P Extra Wide Dash I have seen this only on .45 ACP

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Long Dash (0.174)(4-14-60) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Medium Dash (0.040)(12-30-70) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Close Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Medium Spacing Between Letters

R - P Short Dash (0.015)(4-14-80) Wide Spacing Between Letters

. R - P . Medium Dash Medium Spacing Between Letters with Outside Dots

R . P Dot (Centered Vertically) Close Spacing Between Letters

R . P Dot (Centered Vertically) Wide Spacing Between Letters

R (diamond) P Close Spacing Between Letters


#12

Ron - the calibers that I have seen (and with one exception have) with the two dots are .25 Auto, .32 Auto, .30 Luger, .380 Auto, .38 Auto and .45 Auto, which Steve Fuller had when he was collection this caliber, but I have never been able to find.

Now, about the Mexican connection. I seriously researched headstamps of ammunition made in M


#13

M89-Yes, the changeover from REM-UMC to R - P (Long Dash) was 1960. Of course, the change was over a period of time, but it started in 1960.


#14

John, I made a mistake. My REM-UMC that came out of the factory in Mexico has dashes, not dots on the headstamp. I got the cartridge from John Crump so he may have something to add to the story. My memory is that he had 3 or 4 calibers, but that was 25 years ago and I could be wrong on the multiple calibers.


#15

Ron,

Here’s a headstamp you probably don’t have. It’s not on a cartridge, just a headstamp on a brass “button” or some such thing that’s about 1/8-inch thick. The object is about the size of a .30-06 head. I’ve shown it here at 2X actual size and filled in the characters with black ink so they be easier read.

I have about 25 of these and will give one to any IAA member who wants one. I’ll have them at SLICS. Just ask.


#16

Lew - There is no question about your 9mm REM-UMC with dashes being Mexican. It was made by Cartuchos Deportivos de M