Oh, what a pity! Do you have notes indicating how the manufacturer was indicated in the label? I mean, how do you identified the manufacturer as Energoinvest Novi?
Fede, I just googled the wording of the label and found it was the old name of Energoinvest.
Back then Jack provided me all available data from his specimen and I did the research for my database and informed him then what I had found.
Here is a better picture. I also included a round that I don’t know much about. It has a 5.45mm projectile in a white plastic sabot. The case is fired so I don’t think the headstamp is so important.
thank for the picture
very nice round
the case is coated with sort of graphite ?
for the other maybe one of experiments for saboted projectile (i “saw” few types but most for flechettes)
The case is very slippery, so perhaps a graphite anodization of some sort.
My friend David, a Spanish collector, sent me a picture of a very scarce Portuguese drill round that he asked me to post here.
I have not come across a primer looking like the one in the last photo you posted. Is it a combustable primer of sorts?
As it is a Dummy/Drill round, there is no primer.
I think its leather or some sort of coutchouc (Rubber) to take the blow of the firingpin…
Thank you Forensic! Interesting cartridge none the less!
Simonov SKS Type 45 Carbines, by Wyant Lamont and Stephen Fuller. Autographed by Stephen Fuller and Jack Wells. I miss the signature of Russ Cornell (my 7.63 x 39 guru). This book worth a lot more for me than the rarest round in my 7.62 x 39 collection.
This issue raised some doubts for me and a friend of mine, also a collector and member of this forum.
Paul Smith, without wanting to belittle the information placed in this post, we were “drinking” information from the source, in this case, the person who designed the 7.62x39 ammunition projects, manufactured in Portugal by FNM. Several reasons have been stated to “assure” that this is not Portuguese manufacture, among several, the following stand out:
- the ammunition morphology is different;
- FNM did not dig the bullet into the casing in this way;
- extraction collar is different.
Probably will have been manufactured by FNM in mexico, Fábrica Nacional de Municiones, Santa Fe, Mexico (I ask you to correct me if the information regarding the Mexican factory is wrong) .
If we are now talking about the dummy/drill round, the headstamp appears to be of a Portuguese style, but the rubber “primer” and case knurling look very Spanish to me.
For what it’s worth, I have seen others examples of this cartridge, and one was for sale in Portugal. Same knurls, rubber “primer”, bullet crimp and headstamp.
I agree with Jonny. I had several dummy 7.9 x 57 mm in my
collection when I had it, with the same triple knurled rings and
"snap-cap" false primer. The headstamp, though, looks
typical Portuguese to me, not much like the FNM on any of
the Mexican 7.9’s I had, or auto pistol rounds I still have. I
very much doubt that it has anything at all to do with Fábrica
Nacional de Municiones, México.
Jonny, Fede and John, I am just transmitting the information that was passed to me by the person who designed the projects at FNM in Portugal.
nunoc13 - while I believe the original case is of FNM Portugal
origin, despite the fact that many Portuguese dummy 7.9 x 57
mm rounds had three knurled rings around the case, all that I
have seen have been nickel or chrome-plated cases using a
nickel or chrome-plated primer cup. The style of the dummy
in question, when I compare it to known Spanish rounds with
plain brass cases and three knurled rings, is more similar to
the characteristics of those Spanish ones.
I could be totally wrong about who made this into a dummy round,
but I am pretty confident about the headstamp being Portuguese.
It follows the printing style and layout of many well-known Portuguese rounds
of different calibers that I have had in my own collections.
I just readed Russ Cornell’s checklist and it also includes a dummy with 7.62 x 39 FNM 86-1 headstamp. No idea if it looks the same.
I will try to find out as much as possible about this cartridge, so that I can make sure 100% about whether or not it is Portuguese.
Fede, i have a dummy with that headstamp (7.62x39 FNM 86-1), already inert from the factory. It corresponds to the photo of the tracer ammo, which I placed above.
Please try to compare in these photo assembling I made with Paul Smith’s pictures over mine of a genuine FNM 7,62x39 (this specimen is an inert tracer made by INDEP for commercial shows).
As you can notice, the bullet crimp is completely distinct (I know for sure it was never used by FNM.
The headstamp is different also (notice the size of the X and the inversion of year/lot number)
There are some very slight differences in the cartridge base near the extraction collar.
I have the privilege to be a personal friend of the man who was the master designer of the machinery and tools used in the manufacture of FNM and I showed him these pictures.
It happens that he was one of the technicians that worked in the 7,62x39mm project from the very beginning in FNM, and he even has copies of the project data, blueprints included.
After seeing these pictures he made me a phone call and told me he was absolutely sure that the cartridge has nothing to do with the Portuguese FNM. He doesn’t even admits the possibility of being “something” made with an empty cartridge brass from FNM, because the small details in the base of the cartridge and in the headstamp are (in his words) completely different of the Portuguese FNM production.
I hope this helps identifying Paul’s cartridge in the way that it excludes the possibility of being Portuguese production. Nevertheless, I am sorry not being able to ad any information about the origins of that particular cartridge, except reporting the hypothesis of being a Mexican production (?)
I have been following this thread with interest so have to add my two cents. I don’t doubt any of the information above is exactly as portrayed by the posters. Also, I know essentially nothing about Portuguese 7.62x39mm ammunition.
I do know that, on 9x19mm, FNM used the lot number after the date as protrayed on the inert tracer above into 1965 and in 1966 and later produced cases with the lot number in front of the year.
It is also pretty evident that the shape of the numerals on the two headstamps pictured above are essentially identical. I have no idea whether FNM produced their own hobs/bunters or whether they hired someone else to produce them, but it sure looks like the hobs/bunters used from these two headstamps came from the same source. This does not mean that they were both used by FNM, but I think it is extremely unlikely that the cases were produced outside of Portugal. I can’t imagine Mexico buying headstamp bunters from FNM or from the supplier of bunters to FNM in Portugal.
Excellent thread, my thanks to all the posters.