Recent 9x19mm acquisitions-and some questions!


#1

Recently I picked up some cartridges from a local collector who was well known in the local autopistol community as a collector of both 9mm Luger pistols and ammo. He was never a member of the IAA. He passed away in January and a local gun collector wound up with his 9mm singles collection. I was surprised at the quality of a number of the cartridges in his collection. He also has a collection of cartridge boxes which also has some nice items, including a German 19rd Navy box from 1910, 11 or 12 which I am still working on, along with some other surprising boxes-mostly US. The collector had connections with MAC and the Werbell family and with American Ballistics and all the old ammo companies in the Atlanta area that went back 40+ years, and knew people like Supervel well. He did some gunsmith work and worked in gun shops of for ammo companies his whole adult life as far as I can tell.

In his collection were the rounds pictured below which I found particularly interesting. Numbers 7 & 8 are for interest. I have never seen either of these before. EO6161 is the Olin Experimental Order number. Some boxes of these sold a few years ago on gunbroker, but I have never seen a factory dummy.

Number 2 looks like a very early Extreme-Shock “FangFace” dummy although the bullet ogive is quite different from any of the Extreme Shock loads I have.

Number 3 is likely a Valet load, the version with percussion cap(??) instead of a standard primer in the bullet (Paul Smith-photos below)

The case on 4 could be German WWII but there is no hint of case lacquer, even down in the groove. The bullet is clearly not a German WWII P08 bullet.

Number 5 first struck me as an early Blazer prototype, but the one I have has the large diameter copper primer and this has the small nickel primer used in much later Blazer ammo. The bullet looks like a CCI Blazer bullet. The overall weight is within 0.5gr of that of a small primer Blazer load with the same bullet. This is probably close enough that it could be a normal Blazer round with the headstamp and primer crimp removed. (dArtagnan)

Number 9 has a large brass primer like the early Blazer prototype but like #5 lacks the primer crimp found on the aluminum case Blazer loads. The red pa and magnetic bullet are unlike anything I have seen on Blazer ammo. Blazer large brass primers are magnetic. This primer is non-magnetic. (dArtagnan)

Numbers 4, 5 and 9 all look to me as if the headstamps have been removed and the case on #4 looks polished to me-but why??? These were in the singles collection of a pretty knowledgeable collector.

Number 6 is noticeably more shiny than my tinned case proof round with the same headstamp.

  1. 232gr oaw-solid turned brass
  2. 184gr oaw-clear plastic filled primer pocket-in pen on side “IMI 9mm LUGER BLACK HILLS”.
  3. 161gr oaw-tip looks like red wad with clear lacquer, not like a primer
  4. 150gr oaw-steel case-magnetic bullet
  5. 143gr-aluminum case-bullet looks early Blazer
  6. 181gr-tinned or nickel case ???-black pa.
  7. 176gr oaw-BRASS jacket bullet-EO6161 dummy??? The loaded EO6161 round weighs 182gr with a 115gr 260 alloy bullet.
  8. 171gr oaw- Squires Bingham dummy
  9. 129gr oaw-magnetic bullet-red pa

Do any of you have any of these rounds or can identify them? Theories are welcome.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

hello
the n4 look like a swiss nickel bullet loaded on steel german case that has been polished
the n6 is well a thinned case but i think the bullet is not original (reload ?)


#3

ammogun, I can’t disagree on #6, but it looks like a black pa to me-maybe I am mistaking. The case shows no evidence of being fired so it is probably not a reload. Could have had the bullet swapped for some reason. I will have to take a closer look at the pa.

Number 4 can’t be a Swiss bullet. The loaded round is too light at 150gr. The Swiss bullet is 125gr. A steel case German load with a 124gr lead core bullet has an oaw of 182gr. This is about 32gr heavier than #4 which must have a bullet weighing about 90gr or so. I think it is probably a 380/9mmK bullet. If so, somebody went to a lot of trouble to make this-for what purpose! The collector had some strange stuff, like a duplex Super Vel loaded with two 380 bullets-loaded base to base in the 9mmP case.

Over the years, the Atlanta area has had a lot of small ammunition companies come and go. There are at least three in the local area today. Funny stuff shows up. A few years ago I went through the 9mmP left over from MAC (of MAC-10 fame) and there were lots of boxes of ammo with different color markings. These are still the property of the Werbell brothers whose father ran MAC. They had no idea what the markings meant, only that they were probably different kinds of loads that were put together for the development and testing of the MAC machine pistols.

A couple of years ago, at a local gun show, a guy had half a dozen 25rd cardboard FN boxes covered in masking tape. On the outside was written “9MM STEEL J. No.25 12/71 9g MN”. The cartridges inside were “9 M M 40” cases CNCS bullet with a German WWII style ogive, and dark green cms and primer & pa. Cases are not reloads. Lots of trouble for someone to go through unless they were doing some serious testing. Could have been a serious shooter, but who knows. Just as likely they were a test at MAC or American Ballistics or one of the other little companies around Atlanta.

I learned a long time ago not to throw things away without thinking. I know of too many cases where things were thrown away because somebody decided that they were just reloads, and later discovered they were rare, historic cartridges. One is a pretty unique German cartridge and there are only two in collections that I know of, one in the Woodin Lab collection and the other in my collection. These rounds look like a paper-patch lead bullet 9x19mm load-but an X-ray shows it isn’t a paper patch bullet. There use to be another example of this load, but the owner threw it in the trash because it looked like somebody’s homemade reload. Another round is discussed in Woodin-Hackley-Scranton Vol III. There were only three rounds known and I got my two from the guy in the CIA who had them made. No special visual identification. One of the two is now gone, probably trashed as a reload. I can give you 3 or 4 other examples.

I don’t throw things away just on a suppositon—have a special box to put them in. Just cause I don’t know what they are does not mean they are junk! That is why the Woodin Lab keeps unknowns, suspected fakes and know fakes—all are important for the overall cartridge knowledge base.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Lew, on first sight #4 round looks like a 9 kurz bullet.

Rolf


#5

No 5 looks somewhat like the unheadstamped Winchester or Olin aluminum case?


#6

hello
i had a small know on ammunition because there are too much to know all
i mistaken for the n4 because i know only swiss 9mm para bullet with this round nose


#7

Ammogun, Sorry, I appreciate your comment. No reason you should know the bullet weight of the Swiss 9mmP bullet. Without knowing the weights, I would have made the same comment. Thanks for our answer!

Cheers,
Lew


#8

thank
and i doesn’t got tools to know exact mesures of my cartridges
in general i best know common ammunition not rarities


#9

Hi Lew,

Some of these Velex/Exploder types rounds didn’t use standard primers and as a result don’t have the same appearance. Standard primers have a noticeable radius while the percussion caps(?) are almost flat. So, maybe #3 is one of these.

Paul


#10

Thanks Paul. I think you nailed it. I didn’t realize there was this difference. Have you found the tip colors mark a difference in the bullets? I have bullets with red, black, yellow, light blue, medium blue and dark blue tips. Most have standard primers but some have the flat tip set deeper in the case. The overall weights for each tip color are as follows:
Red tip, four rounds: 156gr-161gr
Yellow tip: 154gr
Dark blue tip: 146gr
Medium blue tip: 148gr
Light blue tip: 142gr
Black tip: 170gr
Black tip-reportedly Mercury filled-stain in GM near bullet tip-looks like what Mercury would do: 185gr

Sure is great to have someone who has cut these apart and knows what is in them!

dArtagnan just sent me a note on #9 noting that the large brass primer looked like the one used on early CCI Alumnum case Blazer cartridges including the one without a headstamp. I had the same thought myself when I first saw the cartridge. He told me that “These early large Blazer primers had steel anvils”. Sure enough all these large primers on my CCI items in the collection take a magnetic. I was surprised when the primer on #9 turned out to not be magnetic!

Off the top of my head, I can’t remember any 9mm cases other than Blazer that use this large primer. Perhaps one of you do. The bullet in #9 is magnetic which is something not found in CCI ammo as I recall. I originally thought this round was probably an early CCI load with no primer crimp and a different bullet. Clearly this is not the case. Stranger and stranger!

dArtagnan also pointed out that the bullet on #5 looked like a CCI Blazer bullet. The overall weight is within 0.5gr of that of a small primer Blazer load with the same headstamp. This is probably close enough that it could be a normal Blazer round with the headstamp and primer crimp removed.

I am updating the original post with this information.

Many thanks!

Please keep the posts coming! This is a great help.

Lew


#11

Lew,

Possiblity for projo in #2. Samson/IMI made and loaded an 8-petal copy of the commercial 9mm Winchester SXT bullet (does not perform as advertised in standardized tests) called the Di-Cut.

The only example I have is loaded with a 115gr bullet. Perhaps yours is a developmental one, a bullet manufacturing stage, etc.?

NO clue on the primer pocket or the ‘Black Hills’ tagging. As far as I know BH has only used domestically produced JHPs in their 9mm loads (XTP, Gold Dot, etc.).


#12

Mwinter, I had not thought of that possibility. Below is a photo of the box end and the DICUT load.

The cavity in the DICUT bullet is about 4.5mm deep which is about the same as #2. The weight of the DICUT is 186gr so that is also close. The opening in the DICUT is much smaller but if #2 is a development item, who knows.

I guess I jumped to suspecting an Extreme Shock load is that the first time I heard of them was when they showed FangFace dummies at a European Trade Show. The police objected and they had to take their dummies from the display. I got this information from an occasional member of the Forum quite a few years ago. The earliest ES loads used commonly available cases so I didn’t pay much attention to the IMI headstamp. Clearly a DICUT prototype is a possibility.

Cheers,
Lew


#13

I suspect that #2 us by D and D Bullets of Okmulgee OK and part of their Omega Star line. I have their Omega Star II in 115gr which is the same weight as #2, with the same internal construction inside the HP-which is quite different from the ES Fangface. Beside the bullet ogive, the inside of the HP is copper plated while #2 appears to be plain lead. D&D is long out of business apparently. Number 2 could be an Omega Star I load. Has anyone seen the “Omega Star I” (apparently designed for maximum penetration). Both the Omega Star I and II are asserted to combine the best of both hollowpoint and frangible bullets. The lower core is solid lead and the upper core is #2 or #BB lead shot.

Does anyone know a bit about D&D Bullets??? Not much on the internet.

In a week or so I will post a packet and cartridge photo of the Omega Star II.

Cheers,
Lew