Reizstoff(irritant gas)ammunition for German Police Gas Guns


#1

Dr. Lorenz Schiet’s recent book on German flare pistols and ammunition included a section on the German police Reizstoff (Irritant Gas) Pistole and ammunition. Three cartridges were displayed in the ammunition section that conformed to the physical description of Reizstoff ammunition included in the Fischer book on German Police Weapons.

As I showed in the topic I wrote on the Reizstoff Pistol, the forward end of the bore past the depth of the standard Kal.4 flare round was reduced to 24mm diameter by means of a permanent barrel insert. I do not understand how a tear gas round that looks like a standard flare pistol round would function in a barrel in which the diameter is reduced by 2.5mm. Would something from the cartridge be blocked when firing?

The description of the police gas gun specifies that only Type A ammunition that was suitable for attacking closed rooms would function in the Reizstoff pistol. The other Type B ammo would function in a standard flare pistol. To me this indicates that a projectile of small diameter was shot from the standard size casing for the gas cartridge. Scheit also includes in his book a photo of such a cartridge by CFS Hamburg along with a box.

Does anyone has an identified Type A German Police Gas Gun cartridge? Am I misunderstanding the design of this pistol?


#2

I will shoot in the dark. Several US tear gas guns, pen launchers and billy clubs had both (or either) a chamber reduction or a barrel “pin” to prevent “bullets” from being chambered.

I may be way off base trying to understand the question

just my spontaneous opinion

Pepper


#3

[quote=“Pepper”]I will shoot in the dark. Several US tear gas guns, pen launchers and billy clubs had both (or either) a chamber reduction or a barrel “pin” to prevent “bullets” from being chambered.

I may be way off base trying to understand the question

just my spontaneous opinion

Pepper[/quote]

Thank you for trying to work on this, but you are way off base. My article is on the forum here: flaregunforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=90 . In the article, you will see this photo of the bore of the German police Reizstoff Pistole:

The reduction of the bore size from 26.5mm to 24mm was designed to facilitate the firing of a projectile of slightly smaller diameter than the shell casing. It doesn’t prevent any type of correct diameter case from being inserted into the breach.


#4

I got a reply from Horst Thielbörger. Here what he wrote:

For this gun 3 cartridges existed:

  • Reizpatrone A (irritant cartridge A)
  • Reizpatrone B (irritant cartridge B)
  • Übungspatrone (practice cartridge)
    The cartridges A+B contained glass ampoules with tear gas liquid while the practice round contained a harmless smoke detergent.
    The cartridges were effective at about 30m.
    The ampoules had a diameter of 23.5mm and were seated inside a cardboard sleeve. This was the reason why the barrel diameter got reduced to 24mm right in front the chamber.
    It is assumed that the cartridges were leoaded at Stolzenberg of Hamburg. The cases were made by Schönebeck and RWS.
    The finished cartridges were dipped into tar-laquer right up to the case head.

#5

Joe, the designation given by CFS to these cal. 4 cartridges was Fernkampfpatrone (far distance) and Nahkampfpatrone (melée). Examples of the first one have yellow signal cases 83 mm long (tan paper body, brass head and six-pointed star headstamp) and a protuding ampoule container varnished silver. Total lenght c. 95 mm.

Here is page from a catalog by this company describing this cartridge under designation “Polizei-Reizraketen-Patrone”:


#6

[quote=“EOD”]I got a reply from Horst Thielbörger. Here what he wrote:

For this gun 3 cartridges existed:

  • Reizpatrone A (irritant cartridge A)
  • Reizpatrone B (irritant cartridge B)
  • Übungspatrone (practice cartridge)
    The cartridges A+B contained glass ampoules with tear gas liquid while the practice round contained a harmless smoke detergent.
    The cartridges were effective at about 30m.
    The ampoules had a diameter of 23.5mm and were seated inside a cardboard sleeve. This was the reason why the barrel diameter got reduced to 24mm right in front the chamber.
    It is assumed that the cartridges were leoaded at Stolzenberg of Hamburg. The cases were made by Schönebeck and RWS.
    The finished cartridges were dipped into tar-laquer right up to the case head.[/quote]

Please thank Horst for contributing to this. This information concerning the physical characteristics of the cartridges is from the Fisher weapon manual and the orders creating the Reizstoff pistol in 1936. But there is a difference between Cartidges A & B. Type A could only be fired in the reduced diamter bore flare gun, while B could be discharged in any flare gun. So there had to be some difference that concerned the use in closed quarters.

Stoltzenberg invented the tear cash so I would expect the ampules to be made there. Thank him for the info on the case makers.


#7

[quote=“Fede”]Joe, the designation given by CFS to these cal. 4 cartridges was Fernkampfpatrone (far distance) and Nahkampfpatrone (melée). Examples of the first one have yellow signal cases 83 mm long (tan paper body, brass head and six-pointed star headstamp) and a protuding ampoule container varnished silver. Total lenght c. 95 mm.

Here is page from a catalog by this company describing this cartridge under designation “Polizei-Reizraketen-Patrone”:[/quote]

Fede, thank you very much for this additional information. These would be the CFS cartridges that you mentioned above.

The cartridges differ in color from those described above. Perhaps they are immediate post WWII. Whatever. They do illustrate the projectile that carried the glass ampule through windows to detonate in closed rooms.


#8

Joe, Horst is reading here too just his English is not suitable for postings. So he will read your comments himself.


#9

I spoke back to Horst Thielbörger:

It seems that there is some confusion.
The box and cartridge shown above are not related to the initailly discussed cartridges and gun with bore reduction.
The shown cartridge + box are from the 1920s (for shortened full bore flare guns in police use) while those in question (reduced bore) are from 1936-1938.

Further the Police handbook is stating that the practice cartridge has the same parameters and ballistics as the A & B loads. So as per the wording the A and B are both identical in construction and are for the reduced bore gun in question.


#10

[quote=“EOD”]I spoke back to Horst Thielbörger:

It seems that there is some confusion.
The box and cartridge shown above are not related to the initailly discussed cartridges and gun with bore reduction.
The shown cartridge + box are from the 1920s (for shortened full bore flare guns in police use) while those in question (reduced bore) are from 1936-1938.

Further the Police handbook is stating that the practice cartridge has the same parameters and ballistics as the A & B loads. So as per the wording the A and B are both identical in construction and are for the reduced bore gun in question.[/quote]

I agree, there is some confusion. I never accepted the cartridge in the above image to be from the III Reich period because of the differing color of the body of the cartridge. i did not know whether it was pre-1936 or post-1945. I was unable to date the CFS Schutzmarke.

The Reizstoff information in the Fischer police handbook that Horst mentions differs somewhat from the original order of 1936 creating the reduced bore Reizstoffpistole and the Cartridges A & B as well as the Handgrenade. This order specifies that Type A cartridges are to be used in the reduced bore pistol on enclosed areas. The Type B cartridge is stated in the Runderlass to be usable in any (jeder) Leuchtpistole. It does not state that the Type B could be fired in the Reizstoffpistole.

So we have confusion between the Fischer manual and the 1936 Runderlass, as the Fischer description seems to say that Types A and B could be fired in the Reizstoffpistole.


#11

I see now where this is originating from. Nothing worse than 2 sources contradicting each other in some way. Lets hope that more accurate info will be found in future.