What is stamped before “REM-UMC”?
What is stamped before “REM-UMC”?
Turkish contract, Turkish symbol.
But Turkey switched to Latin alphabet by that time. Any idea which letters are these?
Another variation from sale 17 lot 682.
Improved a bit
So it is Arabic for “14”. I take back what I’ve written about Latin alphabet. It happened in 1928 or so.
Actually the same symbol on both rounds, found on a number of calibers, from a variety of manufacturers. I always understood it was simply a Turkish property mark.
So, it is not “14” in Arabic? Do I need to change the header?
No, it isn’t. They speak Turkish in Turkey, not Arabic. While they do use a variation of Arabic numbers (as do we), that is not 14.
For the life of me, all I can make out is “8.1”!
Classical Turkish (pre-1928) was written with Arabic Script. ( Not Farsi, as many mistakely state).
Numbers are written the same way as Latin, as a complete unit.
Turkish dating ( before 1928) was also a variation of Islamic dating…rather than AH ( anno Hegira, July, 621 CE) they used a dating system based on the coming of age of the Prophet ( born 570CE, circa, CoA 584 CE.
So add 584 to TurkishDate toGet approximate Gregorian Date
( best seen with dating on Original Turkish Mausers 1887,90,93,03 etc).
Due to Turkish Ordnance year beginning Spring ( April) and being Lunar ( 364 days) there is always discrepancy in Whole year comparison.
The symbol 41 is backwards as far as numbers are concerned.
And not a Turkish Date.
It could be a “script mistake” by a non arabic bunter designer…more than l than likely.
In anycase, it would be meaningless to a Turk.
Here is a better stamping of the mark that appears on Vlad’s .44 S&W Special cartridge.
That mark may differ from the one that Pete showed on a .44 S&W Russian round, it is hard to tell as the marking is not very clear. The headstamp I am showing is from a 9 mm Browning Long Cartridge in my collection, where the obviously-same mark as on Vlad’s round is much better stamped. The headstamp shown was made for Turkey in Germany, by, depending on the year it was made, A. & W. Allendorff if before January 8, 1913, or if after that date, under the new name Öberschlesische Aktiengesellschaft für Fabrikation von Lignose Schiesswollfabrik für Armee und Marine. The location of Schönebeck am Elbe did not change. Their brand was “Marke Füllhorn.” (I am just identifying the 9 mm BL manufacturer, NOT saying that all cartridges with the characters at 12 o’clock were made by that firm or in Germany).
I assume these cartridges were made during the era of the Ottoman Empire. If so, the two characters at the top of the headstamp look nothing like the numbers used during that era (I do not know the name of the system, and was somewhat confused about the entry about Turkish dating systems), for “1” and “4.”
I was told by several sources, that the markings shown on the .44 Spl and the 9 mm Browning Long headstamps, were a Turkish Army (Military?) property mark.
Regarding the change in the title of the thread to reflect “1914 Turkish Contract,” was that change made based on the interpretation of the characters, or from some other documentation that the .44 S&W Special was from a 1914 contract?
If we have anyone on this forum that is conversant with the language form of the characters as they actually appear on the .44 and 9 mm BL cartridge, be they numbers or letters, I hope they will help us out here. The fact that this marking appears on several calibers of cartridge (I have it also on 6.35 mm Browning and know of it on others) makes me question that the markings mean “14” or “41” depending on whether read from right-to-left of left-to-right. I doubt all the cartridges with that marking were made in 1914 or whatever year that would be depending on the calender in use at the time.
At this point, supposition on my part, admittedly.
I have that mark on about 5 or 6 different headstamps, and it’s always the same. I believe it is just an initialed property marking, not a number.
Ottoman Turkish script, or technically Perso-Arabic script, (shown below), was used untill November 1928 when it wA changed to one based on Latin alphabet.
Maybe someone with better eye- and patience- than I may be able to translate…
I just checked my log book. I have that mark, without variation, on: .25 ACP, .32 ACP, 9mm Browning Long, .38 Spl., .44 S&W Special, .44 S&W Russian. I don’t recall ever seeing it on a rifle round, so I am led to believe that it is simply an acceptance mark for private-purchase officers’ pistols.
Anyone have any other calibers with this marking?
a better one than I posted above
So, maybe a 5 and 2, read right to left as 25, so perhaps 1925?
While the character on the right does look like a little like a “2”, the line at the top of the character drops downward, not curved upward as in the number “2”. The character on the left doesn’t really even resemble the number “5” in either of the two types of script shown for numerals.
And again, I don’t believe that all of the calibers that sign is found on would have been made the same year. To much “coincidence.”
Just my opinion.
Agreed. As I said above, it appears to be a symbol akin to “U.S.”, the Broad Arrow, Flaming Bomb, Tzadik, etc.
For some reason, I forgot completely about Ken Elk’s book on “Ammunition with Turkish and Arabic Headstamps.” He chronicles, with photographs, the following calibers of ammunition with the questionable marking:
6.35 mm Auto (FN manufacture)
6.35 mm Auto (German “Marke Füllhorn”)
7.65 mm Browning Auto (FN)
9 mm Bowning Long (A. & W. Allendorff - spelled incorrectly in the book, and attributed to “circa 1914” which would mean manufacture after the change of name to the “Lignose Schiesswolffabrik” [complete name given in my answer with headstamp picture, above])
.38 Smith & Wesson (Remington)
.38 Long (Unknown manufacturer)
.38 Smith & Wesson Special (Unknown)
.44 Smith & Wesson Russian (Unknown)
.44 Smith & Wesson Special (Remington-UMC - two different bullet types)
.44 WCF (.44-40)(Unknown)
11.3 Gasser (Probably H. Utendörffer, Nürnberg)
This last cartridge is dated 1891, which I believe provides the final proof that the characters under study here are NOT a date and likely not numerals at all.
He also mentions unconfirmed reports of the mark appearing on 7.62 M.1895 Nagant and 8 mm Lebel Revolver cartridges.
In text, he says the following: “Several handgun cartridges in a number of different calibres carry a special mark in the headstamp that is believed to signify that they are the property of the Turkish military. Several examples have been discovered among souvenirs brought back from the Middle Eastern campaigns e… Gallipoli. A similar mark has been noted stamped on weapons.”
Evidently, it is a difficult marking to simply translate into other languages. I share the belief now, positively, that is is not a date or numerals, and likely is a property mark of some sort.
Edited to add a second 6.35 mm to the list of cartridges with the odd Turkish marking.
Edited again to add .38 S&W to the caliber listing.