Remington and UMC Loads


#1

Remington and UMC merged in 1911 becoming Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co. Here is a copy of the announcement:

All the catalogs from 1911-1922 show the “U.M.C.” headstamp on all the centerfire metallics. The 1923 catalog is the first one to show the “REM-UMC” headstamp.

According to the 1923 catalog the name was changed to Remington Arms Company, Inc. that year.

QUSTION: Does any have a box that has the Rem-UMC name on the label (1911-1922) that contains cartridges with “REM-UMC” headstamp?


#2

I’ll go one better than a box label. I have a .45 ACP cartridge headstamped “REM-UMC 2-13,” made for the military in February 1913. While it is military, it still indicates that the headstamp was changed from just “UMC” long before 1923. I will bet that the .30-06 collectors probably have many dates with Remington Headstamps before that date.

However, reading exactly what you wrote, it doesn’t say that they didn’t use the REM-UMC headstamp before 1923 regardless of when they started using it in their catalog. It only says that the name of the Company was changed to Remington Arms Company in that year. Of course, even though they changed the name that early, they continued to use the REM-UMC headstamp until after WWII on commercial ammo, although I guess most of military ammo had the “R.A.” designation on the headstamps.

Then, we have the oddball “RA-UMC” headstamp on .32 auto, the only caliber in my field that bears that designation. There may be others in other, non-auto pistol headstamps, though. I simply don’t know.


#3

I agree with John. I have some very early REM-UMC 9mmP boxes (I haven’t dated them) and all have REM-UMC headstamps. The only box of UMC headstamped 9mmP is a UMC box!!! If Remington had used the UMC headstamp from 1911-1922 then we would see the REM-UMC boxes with UMC headstamps, but have never heard of such.

I suspect that, over those 11 years it was just easier and cheaper to use the old UMC artwork.

An interesting question to me is whether any new metallic centerfire cartridges were added to the catalog during those 11 years and what the artwork headstamp was?

Cheers,

Lew


#4

First of all, as John Moss pointed out, I was very careful NOT to say 1923 was the 1st use of the “REM-UMC” headstamp, but only that it is the 1st catalog I have that shows artwork using it on the cartridges.

Second, I agree that it may well, most likely is, a case of just did not bother, for whatever reason, most likely cost, to change the artwork.

From 1911 to 1923 I have the following catalogs:

1911/12 (combined) illustrated catalog
1913/14 (combined) illustrated catalog
1917 Price List Only
1923 Illustrated Catalog

OK, those are the facts of what I am working with. Now for some more information. In answer to Lew’s question about what do new introductions show. The answer is nothing. The 1913/14 catalog lists .22 Savage H.P. and 5.5 Velo-Dog as new for that catalog, but neither cartridge is shown in the artwork, only in the price list part of the catalog. Since I only have one price list with NO illustrations of Centerfire Metallics between 1914 and 1923, there may well be an earlier than 1923 catalog showing “REM-UMC” Again, you will note in my previous post, I ONLY said, the earlist catalog I HAVE, that shows “REM-UMC” is 1923. I have since gone back to the catalogs and looked at the shotshell section. The 1911/12 catalog shows all shotshells except 4 Ga. with “REMINGTON U.M.C.” headstamps. so, at least on shotshells, the new company name is used right from the start in 1911. Also, while the 1917 Price List does not illustrate the metallics, it does show the shotshells. In 1917, the headstamp on all shotshells was “REM-UMC”. I suspect that it was also changed on the metallics in 1911, thus the nature of my original question in my previous post. “Does anyone have a box with the Remington-Union Metallic Cartridge Co, or Remington-UMC used as the Company name on the box with “REM-UMC” headstamped cartridges in the box.” Or, just the reverse, does anyone have the above boxes with “U.M.C.” headstamped cartridges in it. Also, if the cartridge is illustrated ON the box, what is the headstamp shown and what is inside the box.

Lew–You probabily already know this, but in case you do not, the 1st listing for 9mm Luger is in the U.M.C. catalog for 1909. It lists Metal Cased and Metal Cased Hollow Point with no weights given.


#5

Hi Ron !
They started to use REM-UMC hstp on all shotshells (all brass, paper, yacht canon shells) in 1913
JP


#6

JP–You may be correct, however, the 1913/14 CATALOG still shows “REMINGTON U.M.C.” as the headstamp.


#7

Hi Ron !
Excuse me , when I said REM-UMC it was either Remington UMC or REM-UMC by reference to your initial topic.

The din’t change abruptly from UMC to REM-UMC.
They started first by Remington UMC for some gauges.

And depending of the Gauge (and the type) the year of change is different.
But all the changes were done in 1913.

JP


#8

In .30-40 Krag, the earliest REM-UMC boxes, (red print on tan) where the company name is shown as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. (1911-1916), still show U.M.C. 30 U.S.A. headstamp in the cartridge art and on the cartridges themselves. I have a box that contains an announcement of the merger of UMC and Remington. Slightly later REM-UMC boxes, (mostly blue print on tan), (1911-1916) show REM-UMC 30 USA (without the dashes) in the cartridge art and on the cartridges themselves. My guess is that the .30-40 Krag cartridge headstamp was changed from U.M.C. to REM-UMC by 1914 at the latest…After 1916, when the company name changes to Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co, Incorporated all cartridge art and cartridges are headstamped REM-UMC 30 USA…Randy


#9

Ron,

Thanks for starting this thread. Great information.

Cheers

Lew


#10

In reference to what Randy posted, it is not unusual for a headstamp change from a major company to take place over a period of years. The fast-selling calibers usually see the change soonest, as those are the calibers where there are not large stockpiles sitting in a factory warehouse and where bunters first wear out. The slower moving calibers are sometimes only made once every couple of years, and warehoused to be sold as ordered. Since bunters were very expensive until lasers, etc. came in, they were used, generally, until they broke or got too worn for use.

I recall quite well that the R-P headstamp came in, replacing REM-UMC, over a period of a few years, and that the current Winchester-Olin “WIN” and “WINCHESTER” headstampS took years to even get on .45 Auto. I believe there still may be Winchester calibers on the shelves with a W-W headstamp - .30 Luger, for example, after many years of the newer headstamps on popular calibers.


#11

Yes, I agree with John Moss, that the change to a new headstamp does not occur all at once for all loadings. And of course boxes of cartridges may set in warehouses of not only the manufactures, but also wholesalers and Jobbers, as well as dealers. When I first started cartridge collecting in 1958 there was a old gun shop in my town that had been in business since about 1890. In 1960 they still had Paper-Patched Sharps and Ballard boxes on the shelf.

But, the reason for my Remington project is NOT to determine when the headstamp changed for each cartridge type. The primary purpose is to determine, [color=red]as reflected by the catalogs[/color], the introduction dates of types and specific loads and when they quit listing loads. A secondary purpose is to determine the 1st use of each of the headstamps.

Information such as Randy supplied about the box art as opposed to actual cartridge headstamps in the box is VERY useful. Does anyone else have changeover boxes to add to the information.

At this point, I either have original or digital copies or have access to all the catalogs from 1865-1928 except 20 years. I am 100 % complete from 1929 to date. If you have ANY E. Remington & Sons, U.M.C., or Remington Arms Co. catalogs for the years 1865-1928, PLEASE contact me. You may have one of the 20 I am missing.


#12

Just the night before this thread began I was reading Townsend Whelen’s The American Rifle (published 1918) and, after the matter of use of firm name in factory advertising came up re-checked the book. In fact the headstamps shown are of the form REM-UMC. JG


#13

I read Chris P’s post about the Ruger Commemoratives then read the article.
I skimmed through the rest of the issue & on p-38 found the following .I quote without comment.“Remington & UMC…were not officially joined as one company until 1917.From 1911 till 1917 they had only a joint marketing operation. Ed.” The Editor was not Chris P.


#14

In my post above I failed to make it clear that the cartridge images in Whelen’s 1918 book were not photographs but rather advertising-type cuts, with various sporting bullets depicted. Calibers shown included the .280 Ross. Evidently Remington made these available to TW, and one wonders why they didn’t use them in their own 1917 price list. JG


#15

Dick–It was more than “Just a marketing agreement” In 1911 (see announcement at the top of this thread) Remington Arms Company and Union Metallic Cartridge Company officially merged and began to use the name “Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cart Co.” The announcement further states “all dealings will be conducted under this new title” The announcement appeared in the 2 Feb. 1911 issue of “Arms and the Man”

In late 1916 or early 1917, the company structure was changed from a “Company” to “Incorporation” and the name was changed to “The Remington Arms Union Metallic Cartridge Company, Inc.” Note there is no longer a hyphen in the name and the “Inc.” is added.

In 1920 the name was again changed to “Remington Arms Company, Inc.”, no longer including U.M.C. in the official name.


#16

Ron I know all this stuff as well as you do. I was not endorsing this statement,just reporting it.It did appear in theIAA journal.


#17

[quote=“Ron Merchant”]
But, the reason for my Remington project is NOT to determine when the headstamp changed for each cartridge type. The primary purpose is to determine, [color=red]as reflected by the catalogs[/color], the introduction dates of types and specific loads and when they quit listing loads. A secondary purpose is to determine the 1st use of each of the headstamps.
.[/quote]
Hi Ron !

This is what I am SURE :

First time they used Remington UMC hstp on :
all brass shotshells (Best) and paper Yacht canon shells, was in 1913.

First time they used REM-UMC hstp on:
all brass shotshells (Best & Club) was in 1914.

It is not because they showed an hstp on a catalogue they delivered the rounds with this hstp. It can take two to three years to be effective.

JP


#18

For those who are helping me with my Remington Project, I got the remainder of the catalogs today. Of the modern catalogs, I am still in need of the listings from 1992, 1999, 2001, 2002 & 2003. Except for these, I am now 100% complete from 1929 to 2007.

In this box of catalogs was also some more older ones. I won’t name them all, but included was a 1866 Union Metallic Cartridge & Cap, Co. sales list. They were only in business from 1866-mid-1867 when it became U.M.C. So, I am sure this is their only Sales sheet. I also got a 1869 and 1872 Sales Sheets from U.M.C.

If anyone has any of the 5 modern catalogs I listed above, I would GREATLY appreciate scans of the Rimfire and Shotshell sections. For the Centerfire Pistol and Rifle listings, unless you want to do the whole ammunition section, just the part of the Ballistic Tables that show the Cartridge Type, Load Index, Bullet Type & Bullet weight are sufficient. Xerox copies, unless they are color Xerox, won’t work for these, Because of the colored background, much of the information just comes out black. Scans will work OK.

Thanks for any help.