while researching 35 remington ammo ron merchant stated that remington produced both 200 grn express mushroom bullets and 200 grn core-lokt mushroom bullets. has anyone sectioned these two bullets to detect the diffence between them, is there any difference? how do you tell the difference in loaded ammo? some of my ammo with mushroom bullets have additional groove ahead of the crimp. do these have any significants in identifaction. thanks again
There is a definite difference in the bullet jacket between the Core-Lokt and the older Remington bullets. On the Core-Lokt the jacket was first made with a bulge on the outside. In the final swaging this bulge was pressed inward theoretically locking the jacket to the core. This inner bulge was also supposed to prevent the bullet from disintegrating, something that was common with the older bullets. When you section a Core-Lokt you can see the bulge very clearly. Core-Lokts were made in both Mushroom and Soft Point design.
That extra groove is very common on both Rem and Peters bullets of the era. It is found on many different cartridges. I have some Bronze Point bullets with it. I’m not sure what it is for. Maybe to ID a particular type of cartridge, such as “Express” or Hi-Speed" ??
The modern bullets are a completely different story altogether. Core-Lokts are different, Silvertips are different, only the names are the same.
I dug thru my sectioned collection and photographed these two just for you. ;) ;)
Left is an older Rem Mushroom bullet (with the second groove BTW), and right is a Soft Point Core-Lokt.
30-30remchester–I hope this helps you to sort out the different REM-UMC .35 Rem bullet types:
Here is an image of the Express Hollow Point. Note the smooth cannelure on the bullet. As far as I know, that cannelure is only found on the Express Hollow Point.
Extract from Rem-DuPont 1936 Retail Catalog
This shows the identifying scalloped bullet jacket used on all Core-Lokt round nose soft points. Core-Lokt bullets were first listed in the 1939 catalog.
Extract from Rem-DuPont 1960 Retail Catalog
I could not find a catalog picture of the Core-Lokt Hollow Point loaded .35 Rem. cartridge, but bullets #67, #68 & #69 are the three .35 Rem. Core-Lokt bullet types.
Page from the 1963 Remington Components Catalog
thanks ray and ron didnt want to disasemble any old rounds, so as i understand it the older express mushroom didnt have the mid jacket core retaining bulge that core-lokt soft point and mushroom core-lokt has. am a student of terminal bullet design. i realise core-loct bullets have changed since? have had collasal failure with newer one. this year alone a fair sized mule deer buck completely stopped and dissentagrated a 130 grn core-loct in only 4" of penatration at 200 yds with a 270 win. do you know when the core-loct changed? how about the silvertips? thanks again
30-30remchester–First let me say that your posts would be a lot easier to read if you would use some capitalization at the beginning of your sentences.
I am not quite clear just what you want to know about .35 Rem. bullets. Are you interested in the history of .35 Rem. cartridges? Is it mostly Remington brand your interested in?
Any way, here is some more information on Core-Lokt (Note that the spelling is Core-Lokt, with a Capital C and L, not core-loct).
This is the introduction page for the Mushroom Core-Lokt in March 1939.
The Soft Point Core-Lokt was introduced in 1940.
The only major change to the Core-Lokt was the addition of the Pointed Core-Lokt in 1952
You mention that you had a “collasal failure with newer one”. Define what exact bullet you are referring to, preferably tell me the Load Index Number. Approximatetly what year are you defining as “newer”. I am not aware of any later changes to the construction of Core-Lokt bullets.
30-30remchester–If it is the general history of the .35 Rem. that you are interested in, then you need to go back to 1908, when UMC first listed it.
Something I forgot in my last post was that the first listing of the .35 Rem., 150gr. POINTED Core-Lokt soft point is in the 1956 catalog.
I can’t really help you with the Winchester Silvertips in .35 Rem. specifically. I can tell you that the Silvertip was patented by Western in 1943, but had been loaded by both Western and Winchester, in at least .30-06, since 1940.
I don’t keep track of most of the new stuff now available to shooters because much of it is BS, IMHO. I know that Remchester still uses the names Core-Lokt and Silver Tip but today’s bullets are not the ones of the 30s, 40s, and 50s. The Core-Lokt may still use some sort of inner belt but I doubt if they are made the same way as the originals. The Silvertips, especially, have no resemblance to the originals except in name.
Most hunters today, as you know, much prefer the premium bullets. The cost of even an ordinary weekend hunt is too much to compromise for a 50- cent bullet.
First of all tried to post a similar reply earlier but it must have been sent to data heaven, if it shows up also sorry for the double post. Second i would like to thank Ron and Ray for all their help, the old ads and sectioned bullets are a great help. Next to Ron you mentioned my poor postings,my only defense is i never took typing in school so i have to hunt and peck so every shortcut WAS taken. Now to the meat of the posts. I enjoy collecting 35 Remingtons but they arent my main interest. I was a big game guide for years and have always been a student of terminal ballistics so it the projectile that facsinates me, especially big game bullets of the past. This is the reason for my inquiries. I have over 100 bullets that have been recovered from game animals in my collection. The little big game hunting i still do is with older bullet styles. This is the reason for my curiosity of older Core-Lokt and Silvertips. I am trying to determine the date that the Core-Lokt and Silvertips changed. Many gun writers talk about newer Remington bullets and have talked to Remington about it and they admit the newer ones are just cup and core construction. As to the Silvertips i know the older ones were nickel? and the newer ones alliminum. Also older Silvertips had the tip covering go all the way to the base of the bullet while the new style is just a cap over a lead tip. Concerening the Core-Lokt i had fail this year it was manufactured in the last 5 years. Have noticed similar Core-Lokt failure as early as 1974. There are a few other questions i do have. Is the Peters Inner-Belted bullets the same as the Core-Lokt? What was the time that the small print “REM-UNC” was used? Does anybody have a picture of Peters 30-30 box with their 180 grain non discentagrating bullet? Again thanks guys.
30-30–Here is a drawing showing the construction of the Peters bullets. While the Peters Inner-Belted was similar to the Core-Lokt, it had significant differences.
You asked for a picture of the box for the Peters .30-30 Win., 180 gr. Non-Disinegrating bullet. If it is the design of the box you are actually looking for, go to the below URL and scroll down. It shows 2 different Peters boxes for this bullet type for .30-40 Krag. It’s not .30-30 Win. but the box would be the same design.
I only claim any expertise, if at all, in UMC and Remington products, as shown in their catalogs. If I remember correctly, Ray did a short article on the Silvertips some time back and can help you better with them than I can. As to the small print “REM-UMC”, I think that dates to about late 1930’s but I am not sure. I will check with another collector who knows more about the various Rem-UMC headstamps than I do and get back to you, unless someone else can date this style headstamp.
There does seem to be a difference in construction of the Core-Lokt bullets beginning in 1980. But remember, these are only artist conceptions. You should really section a Core-Lokt bullet from a cartridge that you know came from a 1950-60 era box and one from a modern box to see what the real differences are.
Here is an excerpt from the 1979 catalog. The sectioned bullet appears to be the same basic construction as the 1940 bullet.
This is from the 1980 catalog. The jacket seems to be thicker than normal, but does not have the “Inner Bulge” of the earlier design, except at the cannelure.
30-30…For pics of Peters boxes, go to the Home Page and look at “Peters Cartridge Box Dates”…
There are several threads on the Forum that show and discuss the various protected point bullets of the past. I think most have “sectioned” in the title although the search function will probably bring up more threads than you want.
I did an article for the IAA JOURNAL a while back thay may interest you. It’s in issue #445. The home page will tell you how to get back issues.
The Peters belted bullet is not the same as the Core-Lokt. It preceeded the Core-Lokt. There is a thread on it from not too long ago.
The original Silvertip with the nickel silver full length liner was replaced by the aluminum tip in the early 60s, I believe. I’d have to dig out my notes to get a closer date.
As I said, todays Core-Lokt and Silvertip are different than the old originals. Only the name is the same.
I have photos of many old bullets (sectioned). I’ll get them out and post some on a new thread. If there any in particular that you want, let me know.
[quote=“Ron Merchant”] . . . As to the small print “REM-UMC”, I think that dates to about late 1930’s . . .
The first REM-UMC headstamp was the “small print” style that started in 1912. The 2nd style with taller, thin letters was started sometime in the 1920s. The last style with the wide letters came in the 1930s and continued until the headstamp was discontinued in the 1960s. The exact dates will vary by cartridge.
Ray–Thanks for the info on the aprox. dates of the different sizes of the REM-UMC headstamp. How about a picture of the 3 styles, preferably in the same caliber.
There may not be anyone left viewing this thread but here are 3 headstamps showing the different REM-UMC formats.
Finding the first two was easy because I had a bunch of them. But I couldn’t find a 7mm with the last style so I took the next best thing, an 8mm.
Obviously, there are variations of these. Primarily dependant on the size of the case head and the number of characters in the headstamp. A 348 W headstamp would be a lot different than a 22 Hornet even though they may date from the same period.