Remington--Canada Ammo


#1

I just finished scanning a Remington-Canada Dealers Price List for 2 Jan 1968 for the UMC-Remington Project. I noticed a couple of things. First was that they listed less than 1/2 of the calibers that are in the U.S. catalog and secondly, the listing indicates which loads are MADE IN CANADA and which are U.S. made. It is about half and half. Even for a single case type, like .30-06, it is split into 4 made in Canada and 3 made in the U.S.

QUESTION: Is there anyway, once out of the box, to tell, for example, a .30-06 180 gr. Pointed Soft Point, Core-Lokt, Canadian made from the same load made in the U.S? I presume, in 1969, that both would have some variation of “R-P” headstamp. I also note that Chris Punnett in his book “.30-06” does NOT note .30-06 production by Remington in Canada.


#2

Ron, In terms of all goods the expression “made in …” can be very misleading. There are International conventions covering this but I wonder whether in this instance it could mean “assembled in” or even “packed in”. You can’t automatically take it at face value.

I have personal experience of a British shirtmaker who has his shirts made in the Far East but imports them minus the buttons. By having the buttons sewn on in Britain he is legally allowed to describe them as Made in Britain.

There are all sorts of reasons why this practice proliferates. Mainly because people feel more inclined to buy goods made in their own country and also the Government of that country claims the value within its gross GDP figures Also for someone like Remington there may be tax breaks.


#3

Ron is correct that I do not mention Canadian Remington “production” in my book on the .30-06. At the time of publishing the book 11 years ago, I had found NO evidence that Remington actually manufactured .30-06 in Canada. It was only within the last 10 years that work by IAA members John Witzel and John Belton revealed boxes and some history surrounding the Remington “production”. (See IAA Journals 456, pg 12 & 457 pg 40). Several boxes labeled “made in Canada” have appeared including at least one in .30-06.

Though the reports in the IAA Journal indicate that some centerfire calibers were “loaded” in Canada, I remain suspicious and suspect that they were actually just packaged in Canada (a fact I SHOULD have mentioned in the book). Comments from contemporary C-I-L Ammunition Division employees whom I interviewed a few years later also suggest that Remington just packaged ammo (at least centerfire) at the Toronto/Cambridge plants. But… since I didn’t see the inside of those plants… I suspect, but cannot prove, that the loads were identical to their “Made in the USA” counterparts.

As Vince says, it was not unusual for a manufacturer to claim “made in…” status for ammunition that was just packaged in the country in question. ICI/Kynoch did it, C-I-L (Dominiom Ctg) did it, Winchester did it.

Chris P.


#4

Vince & Chris–While agree with what Vince said about Tax loopholes, etc. I am not sure that is the situation here. Here is a sample page from the 2 Jan1968 Remington-Canada Dealers Price List. As you will note (using .30-06 for Chris) they only claim “Made in Canada” status for 4 of the 7 loads (indicated by green listing). If they were ONLY boxing U.S. made rounds, then there would be no reason NOT to claim “Made in Canada” for ALL the .30-06 loads. Again, if they were only loading, using U.S. components, why not ALL .30-06. I am inclined to think they were actually manufacturing, or having C-I-L or somebody else in Canada manufacture for them, certain loads, not just using U.S. made components, especially the cases. The bullets may well have been U.S. Remington made.


#5

Ron, As I said I have no proof. I found no record of C-I-L making rounds for Remington in Canada (I used to work for C-I-L and did have some access to old Ammunition Division employees). I am also suspicious of the fact that Remington moved their facilities frequently - not easy when you are talking about the final loading equipment and powder storage.

The fact that only some rounds are marked “Made in Canada” could simply be that these were the loads popular in Canada. I remain unconvinced that they did anything more than package them.


#6

Chris and Ron…Just curious…If your theories are correct, and the ammunition was not made in Canada, but was packaged there, what are your ideas on how the cartridges were shipped from Bridgeport to the packing location in Canada ? Seems to me to be “not very cost effective” on Remington’s part ?


#7

I agree - to a degree, Randy. I’m just saying that I haven’t seen anything definitive that would confirm manufacture in Canada. The information I have about them just packaging ammunition is simply word of mouth and circumstantial and it would be silly to rely on just that.

Remington clearly wanted access to the Canadian market (just as C-I-L wanted access to the US market and set up the Plattsburgh NY operation in 1965 - roughly the same period).

Sending all the components up to Canada to be loaded in Canada would be less efficient than sending the loaded ammunition up there to be packaged. Given the driver for doing this was access to the Canadian market either could be possible. I do not know what trade restrictions were in place in that period that would have forced them to load and/or package in Canada. Canadians wouldn’t have been too bothered with “Made in the USA” on boxes of ammunition, so I suspect it was trade restrictions they were trying to get around rather than strictly a marketing ploy.

I very much doubt that C-I-L would have supplied them with components or loaded rounds. C-I-L was struggling to make their ammunition business viable at that time and wouldn’t have sold a competitor components unless it was stipulated that they not be retailed in Canada.

There’s a couple of avenues for Ron to pursue:-
Check the Remington annual reports to shareholders and their annual financial reports (not always the same document) for the 1972-1979 period. See if they mention moving LOADING equipment back to the Remington plant in the US. This would have cost them and there should be an entry in the financial reports.
Check with the Remington Society of America - see if they have any reports from Remington Canada employees in their archives. If they exist they might mention what actually went on in Toronto and Cambridge.
Trying to find out if the premises they used were registered as a “powder magazine” (thus indicating that had powder for loading) would be very difficult though there might be a way.

Chris P.


#8

I have been told by a dealer that in the 60s Rem contracted manufacture of 22 barrels to a Canadian company (Canadian Arsenals Ltd) to allow these rifles to be sold in Canada as Canadian made.
CAL shows Rem Nylon 22 barrels made in their plant 1967.
Perhaps Rem was doing just enough loading or packaging in Canada to qualify as Canadian in a similar manner.


#9

I had an old box of Remington 22 Clay Bird shot that was made by C.I.L. for Remington. They had a U headstamp. Any idea if these would have been made and stamped in Canada or if the cases were made by Remington and sent to Canada for loading?


#10

If there are lot numbers on the packaging can these be used to trace the history of those cartridges?

Glenn


#11

I don’t collect 22 boxes so I sold the box on Ebay. When I took the cartridges out of the box to ship it I found this little note in the box.