Remington UMC 8mm Pieper


#1

Does anyone know where the demand would come from that would have warranted the production of 8mm Pieper cartridges by Remington-UMC? I understand that the Mexican Government used the Pieper pistol during their revolution, and perhaps UMC began manufacturing this cartridge for them. I am looking at a box that is of the style made beginning in 1916 when the Remington Arms Co, Inc name was first used on the boxes. In addition, it has a KLEANBORE paste on overlabel, which most likely indicates production in or shortly after 1926, when Kleanbore priming was introduced, assuming they actually produced these cartridges with the new priming and didn’t just mark all the old boxes on hand at the time as such.

Perhaps Ron Merchant, as the resident REM-UMC expert, would be kind enough to advise what the production dates were for this cartridge. Thanks.


#2

M


#3

Dick Fraser’s REM-UMC compilation shows the 8m/m Pieper headstamp dated from 1921 to 1924 with a rarity of 3 on a scale of 1 to 5. He shows his source as the John Schultz collection.

Ray


#4

Ray,
What would be your guess, as to when the U.M.C. PIEPER headstamp was used?
Thanks,
sam


#5

John, DWM cases #485 and 486 are believed to be the 8x41R Pieper and the 8x50R Pieper - both c1902. This is not 100% confirmed and some of this comes from Datig with the case book not offering too much help.


#6

Brad - thanks. Now that I have the numbers, I looked them up in all three copies of the DWM case register I have - Datig’s book on DWM, and copies of two different original case registers. I see that all three assign these numbers to a Pieper cartridge for Mexico, although under two different calibers, 7.65 and 7.9. Interesting that in no case are any specifications shown, as if they assigned the numbers but never made the ammo. I wonder if anyone has one in his collection. I think I will email Bill and see if he has either. Thanks for the information. The problem with the case register is that if you don’t know a number, you have to look at every entry and try to figure out if the cartridge you want is listed. I have an index for Datig’s book, pulished separately, but of course, it does not show the calibers under the “8mm Pieper” I was looking for.


#7

Woodin Laboratory has no specimen of DWM-manufactured 8mm Piepoer in the collection. Most of the specimens of this caliber are made by FN. Bill indicated that he knew of no DWM specimen at all in other collections.

If anyone has positive proof of the existence of a DWM specimen, or one by Union Metallic Cartridge Company before the merger, with UMC headstamp (not REM-UMC) please post on this thread. Thank you.

It seems like the information in the book on Mexican Arms may be totally wrong regarding production of this round for Mexico.


#8

John - there are examples of the 8x41R without hs which could be by DWM. DWM did produce cartridges without hs so we can never be sure DWM didn’t produce this cartridge although the case book shows no loading info which generally indicates that they were not produced. The only 8x50R that I know of were by FN.


#9

[quote=“sam”]Ray,
What would be your guess, as to when the U.M.C. PIEPER headstamp was used?
Thanks,
sam[/quote]

Sam

I haven’t a clue. I don’t even know what an 8mm Pieper is. I was posting the reference for Guy’s information just in case he wasn’t aware of it.

Sorry

Ray


#10

Brad, thanks for the info on the unheadstamped 8mm Pieper. Yes, that could possibly be DWM. Few people other than the German Group seem to know that the only known specimens of the 7.65mm Glisenti cartridge, which have no headstamp, were made by DWM. I do not believe that there are any known Italian-made specimens. I have also wondered if one of the various unheadstamped 9mm Browning Longs isn’t from DWM as well. The DWM register shows the round. Unfortunately, without box labels, it is hard to prove with any of these calibers. An unheadstamped 8mm Pieper round could also be from Anciens Etablissements Pieper in Belgium. They ran hot and cold on headstamping their ammunition. Some is, some isn’t. I am not saying that I know they produced this caliber - I don’t.


#11

Here is what I have, catalog wise, on the 8mm Pieper:

UMC 1890–No Listing

UMC 1891-1900-I do not have any catalogs.

UMC 1901-1909–125 gr. Metal Cased in both Black Powder and Smokeless.

Rem-UMC–1911-1914–Same above but ONLY Black Powder. NO Smokeless loads.

Rem-UMC–1915-1916–I do not have these catalogs.

Rem-UMC–1917-1929–Not Listed.


#12

I appreciate the in-depth discussion and the several points of view. I was able to find an example of a UMC PIEPER headstamped board dummy in Buttweiler (Vol 2, No 1, Lot 648). While that doesn’t prove that these were made as loaded ammunition, it would suggest that it is likely, and supported by Rons production dates for UMC, lends credence to John’s information regarding UMC supplying ammunition for the Mexican Pieper revolvers and carbines. Buttweiler also listed an unheadstamped Gaupillat example (Vol 4, No 1, Lot 153).


#13

Thanks Ron!
It sounds like 1901-1909. Mine has the U.M.C. over PIEPER headstamp, with the CN bullet and copper primer. No cannlure, but I don’t know if they put them on the smokeless loads or not.
sam


#14

Great information on UMC production of this cartridge. At least, it seems, the book I mentioned could be correct in that regard, after all. Strange it is not in the UMC log, although who knows if it is complete or not. Glad to hear that there are known UMC headstamps to back up the catalogs. Some cartridges entered in catalogs turn out not to have been actually produced, from time to time. This whole thread is a great addition to my files, which had virtually nothing on the 8mm Pieper cartridge. Thanks to all you guys!


#15

John,
Thanks for the information on Mexico - I had only been able to Google a single reference addressing their use of the Model 1893 Pieper, and that made no mention of the ammunition.


#16

Some UMC et REM-UMC 8 mm Pieper



from left to right

  • UMC PIEPER - flat nose FMJ - nickeled dummy
  • UMC PIEPER - flat nose FMJ
  • UMC PIEPER - empty case
  • UMC PIEPER - lead round ball
  • REM-UMC 8m/m PIEPER - flat nose FMJ
  • REM-UMC 8m/m PIEPER - flat nose FMJ gilding metal bullet

chassepot


#17

Guy–The box you picture is interesting for sevreal reasons. The style of the box with “INC.” as part of the company name was used from 1916-1921. It indicates it is a Smokeless load, but the Remington-UMC catalogs only list black powder loads. However, UMC did make Smokeless loads from at least 1901-1909. And, of course there is that “Kleanbore” sticker which dates it as 1926 or later. Also, if this was a normal production item there should be a Product Code number in the lower left corner. I can not see one on your box. All of these things make me think this was a small special contract run in the late 1920’s, perhaps for Mexico as John Moss indicated. Does your box have any cartridges in it? If so, is the primer copper, brass or nickeled, with or without
"U" on it. If it was made in the 1920;s it should have a Nickeled primer, which Remington switched to in 1921 or 1922.


#18

Chassepot–Nice bunch of 8mm Pieper’s. They should all be black powder loads except the one with the cannelure on the case which should be a smokeless powder round. Please describe the primers and the shape of the base in each of them. I have a “U.M.C. PIEPER” round with a RN lead bullet, rounded copper primer and a rounded base. I also have the same cartridge as yours with the cannelure which has a round nosed FMJ bullet flat nickeled primer and a flat base.


#19

Chassepot–You must have added the bottom two pictures while I was typing my last post. When I looked at it the first time it was only the top picture.


#20

Yes, I had problems with imageshack.us

Cheers

chassepot