Rocks are ammunition


#1

I found these at a 15th Century Hohokam Indian site only a few hundred yards from my house. I haven’t tried to date them but I suspect they are quite a bit older than the 1400s.

At the same site I found pottery shards and several stone arrowheads. I thought it interesting that a Native culture far enough advanced to use arrows would still be using rocks as ammunition.


#2

Those look very similar to Arkansas Love Stones.


#3

What a coincidence! My Dental Hygenist read my post and phoned me to say that she had found similar rocks near her house. She had hers analyzed and it turns out they actually are Love Stones, and not ammunition. Evidently, Love Stones can be found in many States. I did not know that.


#4

You are catching on well to the definition of ammunition. I have some photos of Roman sling stones brought back for me by John Cohen years ago ( I take his word for this ) from MASADA , Israel . I wanted a catapult stone but you get what you get. I also have a 15th century stone cannon ball. When I turn up photos again I will post them.

I am reluctant to ask what “LOVE STONES” are as this promising thread might come quickly into the perview of certain parties from the office of professional responsibility and meet its demise.

Arrows anyone ?

My personal collection ranges back to the beginning of projected weapons but we may be too far off the grid when discussing pre-metal projectiles.


#5

I have not been edited in over a week. It is not nice to taunt old people.


#6

Not only did the Peltasti ( slingers, in Greek) in the Roman Legions use stones ( selected gravel from river beds) but the cast their own Lead balls, with “headstamp” ( the Number of the Legion they belonged to!!!)

Probably the earliest use if Ammunition Identification in History.

Lead was such a valuable commodity in Roman times ( Water Pipes, roofing seals, shipping use, Sling Balls,) that mining it was a special monopoly, trading in it was taxed, and the penalties for Lead Theft or Trafficking included, in CE times, condemnation to the Arena.

Regards,
Doc A V
AV Ballistics.


#7

Stone cannon balls were common in the middle ages because of the ease of manufacture compared to the alternatives.
However, today they present a problem in verifying their authenticity. They are as easy to make (fake) now as they were then.


#8

Even though the rocks in my photo have been shown to be Love Stones rather than ammunition, I do know of others that are authentic ammunition. If anyone is interested I will be happy to sell a few at a very reasonable price, plus shipping. Email me.

Mr. Meketa


#9

[quote=“DocAV”]Not only did the Peltasti ( slingers, in Greek) in the Roman Legions use stones ( selected gravel from river beds) but the cast their own Lead balls, with “headstamp” ( the Number of the Legion they belonged to!!!)

Probably the earliest use if Ammunition Identification in History.

Lead was such a valuable commodity in Roman times ( Water Pipes, roofing seals, shipping use, Sling Balls,) that mining it was a special monopoly, trading in it was taxed, and the penalties for Lead Theft or Trafficking included, in CE times, condemnation to the Arena.

Regards,
Doc A V
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

I have always wanted to buy a sling bullet from the tenth legion. I have only seen one in my life and passed because I thought it was too expensive. I should have bought. I am still looking for a Roman 10th legion bullet or bolt ( called both) marked with their " X ". These are the folks who besieged MASADA.

The question of headstamping is still open. Why?

Obvious that the Roman unit or armorer wanted their work to be known. But it is not clear as to why headstamping on cartridge cases started. Some say the hs work strengthens the head. Some say its purpose is ID.

Opinions ?


#10

Just so you guys know - this thread was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek response to other threads of a similar, but serious, vein. I thought the references to Love Stones and my Dental Hygenist gave it away, but apparantly not. It’s now become more-or-less serious. I thought about simply letting it play out until deleted or edited, but since it’s Sunday it’s time to fess up.

In an attempt to salvage a little of my reputation for occasional seriousness, I’ll add that the two stones shown really are artifacts from a Hohokam Indian site near my house. They are called "manos’ and were used in grinding grain into flour. There were shards and stone arrow points there also.

Ray


#11

Ray, to keep the levity going, we in the EOD field used to run into ST-1’s a lot. And yes, we did refer to the ones we could differentiate as Love Stones. I’ll leave it to other, more experienced minds, to decide on whether they are effing rocks or not.

Note: Underlines are intended.


#12

If you want to extend rocks to their logical conclusion you have to take in all the flint impliments found around the world which leads you into a massive subject matter. Too complex to discuss here.

I don’t know what “love stones” were but I suspect they were not projectile based.Probably an early form of birth control used to beat the old man around the head when he became too frisky.


#13

Vince

Telling what a Love Stone is would get me banned, so I’ll leave it to someone else. Let me just say that it involves the word "rock’ preceeded by an adjective used by most all servicemen. Bruce came about as close to it as he could get.

Ray


#14

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Just so you guys know - this thread was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek response to other threads of a similar, but serious, vein. I thought the references to Love Stones and my Dental Hygenist gave it away, but apparantly not. It’s now become more-or-less serious. I thought about simply letting it play out until deleted or edited, but since it’s Sunday it’s time to fess up.

In an attempt to salvage a little of my reputation for occasional seriousness, I’ll add that the two stones shown really are artifacts from a Hohokam Indian site near my house. They are called "manos’ and were used in grinding grain into flour. There were shards and stone arrow points there also.

Ray[/quote]

Sometimes were are serious in spite of our efforts.


#15

[quote=“VinceGreen”]Stone cannon balls were common in the middle ages because of the ease of manufacture compared to the alternatives.
However, today they present a problem in verifying their authenticity. They are as easy to make (fake) now as they were then.[/quote]

My ball came from Italy by way of APG. It and a few others were recovered by Col. Jarrett for his collection.

Any time you want to make up some fake 40 pound stone cannon balls I will take a case of them.

Mine is described as BURGUNDIAN . Burgundy has a very complex history so it is hard telling just where this one came from.


#16

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”][quote=“VinceGreen”]Stone cannon balls were common in the middle ages because of the ease of manufacture compared to the alternatives.
However, today they present a problem in verifying their authenticity. They are as easy to make (fake) now as they were then.[/quote]

My ball came from Italy by way of APG. It and a few others were recovered by Col. Jarrett for his collection.

Any time you want to make up some fake 40 pound stone cannon balls I will take a case of them.

Mine is described as BURGUNDIAN . Burgundy has a very complex history so it is hard telling just where this one came from.[/quote]

With these sort of things the provenance is everything. You see them listed sometimes on auction lists with no suggestion of how they were obtained.


#17

COHEN ROCKS

The pictured rocks ( stones ) were traded to me by Jon Cohen about a decade ago. Described by him as coming from Masada Israel. I have always wanted a Roman catapult stone from that event but these “sling stones” were as close as I have obtained.

The brown one grew crystals on the surface for about 5 years. No good explanation from anyone I could find. I suppose that the humidity of the Wash DC area put it into enviormental shock after eons in the desert.

Who likes this story or do I have rocks in my head as well as in my office ?


#18

[quote=“DocAV”]Not only did the Peltasti ( slingers, in Greek) in the Roman Legions use stones ( selected gravel from river beds) but the cast their own Lead balls, with “headstamp” ( the Number of the Legion they belonged to!!!)

Probably the earliest use if Ammunition Identification in History.

Lead was such a valuable commodity in Roman times ( Water Pipes, roofing seals, shipping use, Sling Balls,) that mining it was a special monopoly, trading in it was taxed, and the penalties for Lead Theft or Trafficking included, in CE times, condemnation to the Arena.

Regards,
Doc A V
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

I am still looking for a sling bolt for the 10th legion.


#19

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]COHEN ROCKS

The pictured rocks ( stones ) were traded to me by Jon Cohen about a decade ago. Described by him as coming from Masada Israel. I have always wanted a Roman catapult stone from that event but these “sling stones” were as close as I have obtained.

The brown one grew crystals on the surface for about 5 years. No good explanation from anyone I could find. I suppose that the humidity of the Wash DC area put it into enviormental shock after eons in the desert.

Who likes this story or do I have rocks in my head as well as in my office ?[/quote]

I have come to doubt the provenance and identification of these “sling stones”. Does anyone know enough about sling use to comment on the possible use of these particular stones ?


#20

Doubt is a good thing, makes you ask questions.
However, I was at Masada when they were dated (passport can confirm that), the stones came from the display area on the “ramp” side of the fortress, and the crystals are probably salt from the Dead Sea air. My area of ammo interest is much more recent than the era of the stones, so I can only go by the info provided to me. If you doubt the ID, ask the people who set up the display. You asked me for items, I went out of my way and risked officialdom to get them, you got what you requested. Sorry you’re not happy with them, but you seemed happy back in 2000. If you didn’t want them then I would have been happy to keep them with all my other souvenirs from Masada and Israel.