Romanian Army reinventing the wheel (57mm S-60)

What do you see wrong/off in these pictures? :slight_smile:
GRAU+NATO=Love :yum:




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I wonder if the clips went into the scrap steel bin??? Could do with 1 in my collection!

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No, the ammo comes without clips and the clips are milled.
Clips are hard to find.

Razvan, what should be wrong in the picture?

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Razvan, what should be wrong in the picture?

The round and shell code according to GRAU should be UOR-281U and OR-281U, respectively. These from the pictures are marked HE instead of OR in both instances. This is again emphasized by the marking on the crate lid: HE=OR.

Why this was done I have no idea, but HE sounds very “NATO/western” to me. To make it even more confusing, these are made in 1987, when Romania was still a commbloc state…

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While the markings are interesting all over (!!!) they appear to be for export.
Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

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I have a question: about ten years ago Yugoimport were displaying at military fairs an extended range 57mm projectile; streamlined, boat-tailed, and I think with base bleed: I have a photo of it somewhere. The sales people on the stand just looked blank when I asked them about the performance advantages.

Has this round been used by anyone?

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Tony, you mean this one.
I never saw it adopted by somebody but that does not mean much. There are plenty of armories around the world where we have no clue about the true contents.

57x348SR_HE ER-BB_Sloboda Chachak_Serbia

Image source: internet.

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BTW, as per the lot number this one here was made in 2004.

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Yes, that’s the one I meant, Alex. I expect that before anyone could start using it, there would have to be a lot of testing to determine the effect on the ballistic performance in a wide range of atmospheric conditions. After which, the sights would require reprogramming.

I must admit I am a bit baffled by the inclusion of base bleed. As I understand it, this is most useful in extending the maximum ballistic range of artillery, but would seem to be of little benefit in an AA gun, which has an effective range which is a small fraction of its ballistic maximum.

You are perfectly right, in my view. But marketing rarely has any connection to physics. In an atmosphere of “everyone is playing with base bleed”, I think they simply jumped on the bandwagon.

Tony, for me hard to tell without the figures you have mentioned.
But back to the question of who may be using it:
As you know the gun is basically an older design and large caliber AA is kinda old fashioned.
Means modern armies do not use them anymore (one remark further down) and armies not equipped as modern (financial reasons) hardly will invest in new (expensive) ammo and as you have suggested new sights or other related equipment.

Remark:
In Russia the S-60 gun is having a revival (plenty of surplus) as they are using it for their new generation of IFVs giving them a real hard hitting gun. And by this outgunning all western puny IFV mounted guns.
And not to foget the Russians are also developing a new generation of ammo for this purpose including APFSDS, guided projs. and other.

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To illustrate my words:
57x348SR_APFSDS_Russia

Image source: internet

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nice view of the APFSDS
the round on the left is a sort of programable projectile ?

The left one is guided to what I got.

Yes indeed. Valhalla Turrets of Slovenia used to advertise new applications for the S-60 but they seem to have dropped these from their website.

The Russians are also marketing an updated 57mm gun as naval armament.

Finally - might have to revive the Italian/Israeli 60mm AFV gun as used by Chile!

Tony, I assume you also have seen the 57mm AGS-57 in the direct fire role for IFVs. For these they even made an APFSDS load!
Very Russian - always having a surprise where noone would expect it.

Wasn’t the 60mm IMI single loading? Plus a rimmed case will not take it any further I assume?

But as we see the Bushmaster is coming in 50mm already, though way weaker than the Russian 57mm it is showing that thinking has started (slow but after all it started).

Yes, I’ve seen the AGS-57 loadings. That is one strange weapon system without any comparable Western one!

The 60mm IMI had a three-shot burst facility, although this and/or the OTO version was also available single-loaded. The 60x410R cartridge case was based on the US 76x580R for the M32 gun fitted to the M41 light tank.

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Interesting! I was not aware of the parent case!
I assume they did not neck down original “old” cases?

They probably did use old cases in the development phase, but AFAIK all of the production cases were new.

On the origin: you will often find it said that the parent case for the 60mm was the 76mm OTO, but not so… the US M32 ammo and the 60mm both share 103-104mm rim diameters, the OTO is 114mm.

Tony, thanks! I would have doubted the OTO in any case as the rim is way off and that can be seen from a dictance. I wonder where these experts are drawing their expertise from. (my guess is on a dark and not very good smelling spot).

So were all 60mm automatic guns? I wonder now as the parent case could imply the use of a standard US 76mm breeck block maybe?