Romanian cal.4 / 26.5mm flare gun cartridges


#1

Is there any info on Romanian cal.4 flare gun cartridges? Pre and post 1945 would be of interest. Any images and hs are welcome. Anybody?


#2

this picture is from forums:
http://www.reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?p=2416252 and http://www.trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=24662

PJB


#3

Thanks a lot!!!


#4
  • @ EOD: In Romanian language the letter “S” and “T” may have a “comma” (“virgula” - in Romanian language) unde it, situation in which the pronunciation is different. Please note that there is such a comma unde the letter “T” from the word “M A N I T I U”. Unfortunately I cannot identify the meaning of the word “M A N I T I U”, it could be a maker’s name or just the name of the flare gun. According with the way the word “R O M A N I A” is written, it is 100% sure this cartridge was NOT manufactured between 1948 and 1970 when the word was “R O M I N I A”. After the end of WW2 the new communist regime from Romania decided to change some simple grammar rules but starting with late 1960s some of the old grammar rules were used again. So it was like this:
    “R O M A N I A” - used before 1948;
    “R O M I N I A” - used between 1948 - 1970;
    “R O M A N I A” - used again after 1970.
    I’m pretty sure this 26.5mm flare gun cartridge was manufactured before 1948, not after 1970 and definitely not betwee 1948 - 1970.
    Liviu 08/28/12

#5

Hello ,
Manitiu is a common name in Romania, and i found at least 2 entries with the same name in Sibiu (born 1893 to 1896)…
So the possibility is, that a company with this name name existed, which produced this Flares, means that name is not a brandname, but the name of the makers company.
If so, there must be entries in some industrial registers about that…
But i have no acces to such sources, except the “gravestone search” in Romania, finding such names…
Thx for giving a timeframe for the spelling of Romania/Rominia

PP


#6

Thanks Liviu!
Since the images are from Russian digger forums these are all pre 1944 I think.


#7

Hello,
the image below shows a case head of the RWS in Germany, produced about 1936. The cases were loaded at the Eisfeld - plant in Silberhütte. Mister Manitiu was General - importer of such ammunition. The top image shows a cartridge from the war - time. Where this cartridge was made, I can not say. Before 1935 in Romania french cartridges were used.
Best regards
Horst


#8

[quote=“Forensic”]Hello ,
Manitiu is a common name in Romania, and i found at least 2 entries with the same name in Sibiu (born 1893 to 1896)…
So the possibility is, that a company with this name name existed, which produced this Flares, means that name is not a brandname, but the name of the makers company.
If so, there must be entries in some industrial registers about that…
But i have no acces to such sources, except the “gravestone search” in Romania, finding such names…
Thx for giving a timeframe for the spelling of Romania/Rominia

PP[/quote]

  • @ Forensic: The name of “M A N I T I U” is not a common name in Romania, I can tell you that for sure after living more than 30 years in that country. Unfortunately the military archives from Romania have not been accessible for research because even now there are hidden facts, names, etc., which can damage the reputation of some high rank officials of today.
    There is another unusual Romanian name like “O R I T A” (also with a comma unde the letter “T”), name that does exist in Japan too. I wanted to refer myself to the Romanian Capt. Marin Orita who had designed during WW2 the “9mm Orita M1941 Submachine-Gun”, the first Romanian made SMG. The fate of the Romanian Capt. Marin Orita remains even today a mystery since the military archives from Romania have not been accessible (it is presumed that the Romanian Capt. Marin Orita was executed by firing squad in 1950s, a very common fate for many Romanians during that decade). Liviu 08/29/12

#9

Probably this is also Roumanian signal cartridges (and signal gun too) but marking is very weakly visible.

picture is from: http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=35772&start=470

PJB


#10

The cartridges in this image are Romanian. I talked to the owner of these about a half year ago.


#11

Hello to everybody,

I am making a research about Mr. Manitiu and his (MANITIU) ammunition factory. So, if you are still interested in finding facts about this subject please feel free to ask.
Of course , I am interested in anything you know about the subject.

Thanks.
Anchi.


#12

Anchi, welcome here!

Great to see you decided to post on this subject. Do you happen to know what the factory made after 1945 and if it remained in ammunition production? Was it maybe subsidized by another state factory? If so did the factory have a numerical factory code?


#13

Hello.

Manitiu pirotechnic factory ceased military production on the 1st of july 1945. After that date (in august) the whole factory was leased to a civilian bussiness.
On 11th of july 1948, all privat bussiness in Romania was nationalised, and so was the former Manitiu Factory (under the civilian name LUMINATAR).
The tools and equipments went to I.M.S. SADU Gorj, ex. Pirotechnia Armatei Bucuresti.

On the location of the (former) Manitiu Factory, on the outskirts of Bukarest, ACUMULATORUL Factory has been built (for electric cells/battery).

When production ceased, the Factory still had some 70.000 flares on stock. So there is some posibility for the Manitiu flares to be used after 1945 but the production was ceased from the mentioned date after.

Anchi


#14

@ Liviu
the name of the person is: Traian Manitiu.
the name of the Factory is: Fabrica de articole pirotechnice Traian Manitiu.
the full name of the business is: Intreprinderea pentru industrializarea brevetelor de inventiuni tehnice, armamente , munitiuni si articole pirotehnice Traian Manitiu.

@ Flare
Mister Manitiu was more then importer for the Manitiu Flares; actually, the Manitiu factory did produced aprox 3,8 mil flares between 1940-1945.
The raw materials were imported from Germany, includind most of the equipment- from Gustav Genschow-Berlin.

Anchi


#15

Anchi, if I got it right Geco/RWS delivered the cases with “MANITIU” headstamps and Eisfeld/Silberhütte loaded complete cartridges.

Thank you for the update on the factory and the fate after 1945.


#16

Probably.

I kow that:
Mr. Manitiu had a patent for a signaling flare, thet was sold or leased to Gustav Genschow & Co. AG Berlin Markgafenstasse 77, in 29 oct 1936. But I do not kow the exact content of the contract.
During 1937-1939 mr. Manitiu purchesed some 130.000 RM worth of materials from G.Genschow AG from which a part was the cost of at least 132.000 empty flare casings.
In august 1939 mr. Manitiu was paying to I.F.Eisfeld Berlin the ammount of 80.000 RM for some chemicals, imported in Romania.
Manitiu factory didn’t start production till July 1938.

So it apears that Genschow AG (Geco/RWS) did produced the emty casings (after Manitiu’s patent and specificatinos) and probably Eisfeld loaded the cartridges. That is until 1938.
After july 1938, until april-may 1939, is proble that Manitu loaded the Geco casings with Eisfeld materials.
And then, after purchesing the neccesary tools from Schuller (in Goppingen), Manitiu started producing the loaded flares, imported only raw materials (aluminium discs, magnesium, potasium, barium -from Deutsche Pyrotechnische Fabtik Berlin).

Achi.

@ EOD. It apears to be hard to upload fotos on this site so please sent me a PM with your e-mail adress, so i can send you what materials i have .