Romanian priming system pre 1945


#1

Is there anybody who could look up his specimen of Romanian pre 1945 made 9x19 and 7.92x57 and check for the exact priming system which is used there?
Mainly I would like to know if it is a regular Berdan system or the Austrian system with an anvil which has a central flash hole and a small groove.


#2

EOD: The only Romanian round I have in dupe is the one headstamped C M C 9L. I pulled it apart and find that it has a two-flash hole Berdan type primer pocket. The primer cup itself is brass, sealed with black lacquer. There is also a black seal at the case mouth. The bullet is 124 grain (pulled specimen 123.9 grains).

Hope this is of some help. By the way, I just also got your email on this. It came through o.k.


#3

John, thanks a lot! This is very helpfull information.

Maybe somebody to state on 7.92x57?


#4

EOD: I don’t have my notes at hand, but I believe Romanian 7.9 m/m of the war period uses the center flash-hole Berdan primer. The Czechs used this system in the rifle calibers, and it would be natural for the Romanians to follow that pattern. Will report later. Jack


#5

Alex,

Some information here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14273&p=101361

Brian


#6

Jack, thanks and no hurry!

Brian, yes, I found that too and did not manage to find out if Romania was using this system in 7.92x57 or not.


#7

Romania, Have initially been a Customer of Both Steyr ( M1892/3 Mannlichers) and The Austrian Ammo Makers ( G.Roth, Keller & Co, then Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik) naturally would have had the 6,5x53R ammo made with the “Roth” Patent Priming system; when they went over to 7,9mm (ZB) they also bought ammo from “Z” (former J.Roth Moravia, then “circle M” then “Z” in Slovakia), also made on the Roth Patent. Other ammo was acquired from Germany and Austria (9mm Steyr Pistol, 9mm Scurt (aka .380ACP); Ammo from Germany (7,9mm) was with standard twin flashhole Berdan (.217"); That from Austria and CSK was Roth Primer. During the Nazi period, the Roth system was abandoned in both Austria and Czechoslovakia, and the standard 2-hole Berdan was used.

The Pirotechnia Armatei ( Romanian ammo Factory) initially used the Roth system, but with WW II, changed over to the German system.

From observing 7,9mm ammo of all these sources. (both Personally, and by Photos on Line.)

Doc AV


#8

Alex, until 1940 the cases made by PA and CMC with a headstamp showing four separating lines have an axial flash hole. I have not observed this in the next headstamp style having the “D” used since 1940. Regards, Fede.


#9

Fede and Doc, thanks a lot for clarification.

Now I just need to find if they kept using the Austrian system right after 1945 till the 1950s.


#10

I believe the CMC headstamped 9x19mm from before the end of WWII was actually made by Geco, or at least some was. I have two boxes of ammo with CMC labels, and both were Geco production. One with the CMC headstamp had the CMC label overlaying a commercial Geco blue label. Both were 50 round boxes. John’s research would imply the round is likely German production.

Cheers,
Lew


#11

Lew, what about the “plain CMC” labeled ones? Also suspected to be Geco?


#12

EOD, My box is for the CMC 9L headstamped rounds. The label is dated 1944 and is over a Geco blue commercial box.

I have never seen a box for the CMC 9 headstamped round which is much more unusual. I have no idea where it was made, but Geco would not surprise me since it looks like it was made by the same source as the CMC 9L. On the otherhand Geco could have set up the Romanian production.

Once at the ECRA meeting in Spa, I ran across a sealed CMC box where the label clearly said it contained Steel case cartridges. I had wonderful visions of a steel case CMC round. Unfortunately the cases all had normal dnh headstamps. Too bad, but who knows, maybe a prior lot did have a CMC headstamp.

Cheers,
Lew


#13

Lew, Geco definately delivered cartridges and components to Romania (I know of 26.5mm) and also production machinery (maybe not Geco itself).

As Romania imported such “low priority” machinery like for 26.5mm (Manitiu) I can imagine that 9x19 machinery would have had a much higher priority and that Romania had an own production by start of WWII.


#14

My box label for the “CMC 9L” headstamped ammo was originally printed with the date 1942 on it. However, that was crossed out and down in one corner it is stamped “1944”.

The powder in these cartridges is a yellow-green powder that is in the form of very tiny, round flakes. I have never investigated powders much (for a collector’s view, I mean) and know little about the subject in relation to national or commercial-entity identification based on the visual aspects of the powder itself. I report this just for the record.

The case and headstamping do not look to be the quality of wartime Geco ammo, although that is very subjective, and if they were made in 1944, when the ammo was evidently packaged, that would be somewhat late, I would think, for a brass case. The box is marked for Orita SMG so perhaps that gun simply required brass-case ammo to function. I have no idea. It is a scarce gun about which little has been written, in English anyway.

The bullet is non-magnetic GM with lead core, which does not square with German production of the time. Impossible it is German? No. Just not likely in my view, again with the caveat that the box date is indicative of the date of manufacturing of the ammo, which of course, is not necessarily the case.

Lew - when you get a chance, could you post or send me pictures of your Romanian boxes? You have a picture of my box label, or perhaps even the same box, I think. I can make one if you do not.


#15

John, thanks again for the detailed examination!


#16

I have three Romanian spent casings for 7,92, as follows:
1938 PA 7.92
1941 PA 7.92 D
1943 CMC 7.92 D
All have a single big hole in the center of the bottom of the tube.
Since I can’t take pictures inside them and don’t plan on cutting them up, you’ll have to take my word on it…


#17

Vic, thanks for confirming this for 7.92 cases made as late as 1943!
An interesting detail!


#18

EOD - The Romanian 7.9 x 57 headstamps are dated within at least the date spread shown below, with no years missing. I had them all and verified that from my 7.9 collection catalog, which while not having a lot of information,
does show the headstamp dates:

CMC: 1938 to 1944
PA: 1937 to 1943

They are encountered (not every date, be me, at least) in S Ball and sS ball.


#19

John, thanks.
So it might be correct to assume that the CMC 1944 will also have the central flash hole then.


#20

There are also CMC`s made in 1945 (Brass case, non-fragmented marking, 7.92.D type, made from scrap brass).
Most Romanian ww2 ammo has a S Ball, with a nickel jacket.

My logic dictates that the tooling should not have changed during ww2 (there was no reason to) so the priming sistem should have remained the same even post-1945. It would be interesting to see the priming system used on Romanian-made 7.92x56(!) made in the seventies. If it has a different priming system the tooling might have been changed and that might be an explanation why the case was shortened with 1mm.