# Romanian WWII cal.4

I have found this head stamp in a Russian forum. Thought you may like to see it and somebody may identify it.

• @ EOD: What exactly do you mean by “cal.4”??? Liviu 01/10/08

I am sure he means 4 gauge. In many parts of Europe shot shell gauges are listed as Calibers. Technically this is incorrect as Caliber is defined as the bullet diameter in hundredths of an inch which would make the 4 gauge about 935 caliber. But since Europe uses the metric system to designate bullet sizes, using Caliber for shot shells is not a problem.

Hi Ron !
A) it is not that exactly :
In england they use bore (or gauge in usa)
In france or germany they use caliber

Both the two words are from the same definition : how many round balls in one pound gives you the caliber (or gauge)

Therefore the name caliber (or gauge) is exact depending of the language of the country

As a consequence of the formula you can find the diameter (in inches or in mm) of the bore

8 BALLS => 8 gauge
10 BALLS => 10 gauge

AND SO ON

24 BALLS => 24 gauge
28 BALLS => 28 gauge

B) Where you are totally false is the fact a 4 gauge means 4 round lead bullets with one lead pound !

First if you make the calcul with english pound you will never find 935 but 1.052 .

Second a 4 gauge is in fact a 6 Gauge (.919) with a maximum bore of 938 (what they call 6/1).
Because in England they divided each gauge into subgauges !! lol!
a 8 gauge for exemple can be from the gun proof house anything between 9 and 7/2.

C) 4 gauge, 32 and 36 gauges are the only gauges not coming from the calculation
(about 36 for exemple because they took the external diameter of the 12 mm french ctge)

JP

JP–Thank you for the more precise explanation of the use of Caliber for shot shells in France and Germany.

• @ JP: I don’t know too much about shot-shells but I do know for sure that in Romania they use the “caliber”. I have a few empty Romanian made cardboard boxes for shot-shells and they’re marked “Cal.12” or “Calibru 12/70” [Caliber 12/70] and I assume “70” is the length in “mm” of the shot-shell. That headstamp from the “link” posted above by EOD is definitely Romanian. JP, what is the caliber of that Romanian shot-shell??? Is it the caliber 12 ??? —> The headstamp markings are not too clear but I’m sure the mark from top is “M-A-N-I-T-I-U”, there are 2 star like markings and “ROMANIA” can be read very clear. The big puzzle is the word of “MANITIU”, it existed a Romanian grenade “MANITIU”. I’ll try to find more about “MANITIU”. Liviu 01/11/08

Ron ,
Check your 4 gauges shells and you will be surprised if you have old ones.

In france we used French pound which has a different value
and of course the result is a litlle bite different but still a 6 gauge.

The only country for which a 4 gauge was really a 4 gauge was Germany (but this was in the old times). After they switched like all the other countries to 6 bore.

In the very very old book (prior to 1870), in germany, england and france they talked about 6 gauge and not 4 gauge

JP

Liviu,
as I said to Ron, in all the non english speaking countries like italia, france germany and so on we use the same name : caliber either if it is a riffled gun or a shotgun.
In the english speaking countries they use gauge or bore if it is relative to a shotgun and caiber if it is relative to a riffled gun.
Yes 70 means the length in mm of THE EMPTY CASE, and this is also the MINIMUM length of the chamber of the gun to use it.

You can shoot a 65 mm shotshell in a 70 mm chambered gun.
You cannot use a 70 mm shotshell in a 65 mm chambered gun.

If Alex says it is 4 Gauge (Cal 4), I trust him because he knows pretty well the ammo and he knows the difference between a cal 12 shell and cal 4 shell.

Now, regarding cal 4 cases , they are used also in flare pistols.
The case is very often different of the shotgun shells because the rim is thicker.

In the same way very often cal 12, 16, 20 and so on cases used in mortars are different (they have a bulb on the lower part of the case, in order of not chambering these shells into shotguns.

The industrial shells (8 for example) are very often different also of the standard cases (thicker rim) for the same reason

JP

• @ JP: Many thanks for your reply. Actually I would like to know the dimensions [head diameter & case length] of the Cal.4 [4 Gauge]. Can you help me??? Merci beaucoup, Liviu 01/11/08

here they are :

a) for the usual shotgun cases (italiy, germany, france, england standards)
rim thickness: 1.20 to 3.25 depending of the standard
rim diameter : 28.30 to 30.50 depending of the standard
head diameter: 26.10 to 27.60 depending of the standard
neck diameter: 26.10 to 26.25 depending of the standard
b) for flares, industrial and unusual cases the rim can be thicker

jp

JP,
It’s a very interesting thing.In COTW is written that there are some differences like those you reported between brass and paper cases.Is it true?
If I understood you these ones are hds 4 gauge but they are actually 6 gauge ones.Am I right?
Thank you,I think that finding out these informations should had been an hard work!

Pivi

[quote=“Pivi”]JP,
In COTW is written that there are some differences like those you reported between brass and paper cases.Is it true?
If I understood you these ones are hds 4 gauge but they are actually 6 gauge ones.Am I right?
Pivi[/quote]
Hi !

1. Who is COTW ?
2. The dimensions I gave were because of different countries (and periods of years) standards , not from difference between paper and brass cases.
3. Either all brass or paper cases have the same outside dimensions.
4. yes, 4 gauge is actually 6 gauge
JP
PS: if you have a duplicate of your steel case I can make a trade

COTW= cartridges of the world
Sorry,I have only one 4 gauge stell case.However it is an handmade one,I think it has no collector value

Thanks
Pivi

[quote=“Pivi”]COTW= cartridges of the world
Sorry,I have only one 4 gauge stell case.However it is an handmade one,I think it has no collector value

Thanks
Pivi[/quote]