Russia now using NATO Rounds?


#1

I have noticed various Russian rifles are being manufactured in 5.56x45mm and Pistols in 9x19mm which are both NATO calibres. Are these rounds going to replace the 5.45x39mm and 9.18mm rounds in service? or is it only for export weapons?


#2

5.56x45 is not but is made for export (military loads).

9x19 is one of the Russian standard calibers today for the PYa service pistol and several sub machine guns along with 9x21.

I think 9x18 will stay in service for a very long time.


#3

I agree with EOD on the pistol. Russia made somewhere around 5,000,000 Makarov pistols, so it will probably stay in some service - Reserve, Police, etc, for many, many, years, although they will gradually get rid of them. There have been lots of Pistols designed since the Makarov that have been made in both 9 x 18m/m and 9 x 19m/m in the same model, and at least some, I am told, are easily convertable from one caliber to the other - basically barrel, magazine and recoil spring. Don’t know if that is true or not, but that’s what I have heard. There definitely are a whole slew of post-Markarov auto pistols though.


#4

Some of the rifles are sold as 5.56mm but most are offered as .223. A friend of mine bought one about a year back. I can’t comment on the others but his is not as robust and reliable as the “real thing”. In places its quite poor and thats not starting from a very high baseline in the case of the AK47. I wouldn’t have thought it would stand up to much military service.

I assumed they were just foreign currency earners for the factory.

What is more interesting if you look carefully at pictures of British troops on patrol in Iraq and Afganistan is that some of them, not many, are carrying AK47s. (presumably captured ones) Given the known reliability issues with the SA80 and the debate surrounding the combat effectiveness of the 5.56 round I wonder if this is officially sanctioned.

I know that a number of 7.62 H&K rifles have gone out to troops in an attempt to increase their firepower.

By the end of this conflict the 5.56 round will not emerge with much glory. It does not perform well enough under these conditions.


#5

They still produce a number of rifles in 5.56/7.62 for export sales (the AK100 series is available in all three chamberings), and they make several handguns and SMGs in 380 Auto, 9mm Luger, and a new 9x21 AP round; the Bizon SMG with the Calico-style helical mag is available in all three chamberings.


#6

SDC, the 9x21 is not “only AP” or 9x19, 9x18 Mak. or any other caliber. The AP types are existing for all calibers.
The 9x21 is made as:
AP
AP-T
FMJ (low ricochet)
Expanding


#7

[quote=“EOD”]SDC, the 9x21 is not “only AP” or 9x19, 9x18 Mak. or any other caliber. The AP types are existing for all calibers.
[/quote]
exactly
here are 2 samples of 9x19 AP - 7N31 (lighter bullet) and 7N21

and diagram of the 9x18 PBM AP

as for 5.56 / .223 and 7.62 / .308, both are made for commercial use (domestic and export)


#8

Vince,

Are those pictures of purely British patrols or mixed British/Iraqi/Afgani patrols? If they are mixed patrols then there may be a policy of using common weapons and ammo.

gravelbelly


#9

Gravelbelly
It appears to be British troops. For example, there was a picture on TV a while back of a young British Captain killed in the fighting. In the picture he was carrying an AK47. The way he was carrying it was entirely like it was his personal weapon not a trophy or something he had just taken.

You are right though about the local troops, more and more they are using local troops on patrols as part of the hand over.

British special forces have always used an assortment of weapons, at the present time they have the short version of the American rifle. They have always liked the AK47 going back to the Northern Ireland days.

However, as I am no longer a member of the Artists I don’t have the contacts any more.


#10

[quote=“Vince Green”]Gravelbelly
British special forces have always used an assortment of weapons, at the present time they have the short version of the American rifle. They have always liked the AK47 going back to the Northern Ireland days.
[/quote]

For the 5.56mm NATO round to perform well, with such a light bullet, it needs high velocity. Shooting it through a short barrel seems to be self-defeating.

gravelbelly


#11

Good morning Gravebelly
You are up early this Sunday morning, I think the reason the special forces favour the shorter version of the rifle is more to do with portability than fire power.
The point I was really making is regarding the SA80 which should not be still in service. Its always been a white elephant.

The 5.56mm was introduced at a time when the emphasis of modern warefare was focused more in jungles and areas of dense vegetation and it was suited to those conditions. Now we have a desert war with much longer ranges and it lacks the power.
They are not going to do away with the 5.56 but we are seeing a re-emergence of the 7.62 beside it.


#12

The L85A1 was a problem child, but the HK rework to produce the L85A2 transformed it. The British Army now regards it as the most reliable 5.56mm rifle out there, and is very happy with it.

This article fills in the details: quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm


#13

Thats a good article, thanks for that. What a catalogue of problems though, you would have thought they would have dumped them long ago.

I’m still not totally convinced the rebuilt was as sucessful as they claim. I was told it cost


#14

[quote=“Tony Williams”]
The L85A1 was a problem child, but the HK rework to produce the L85A2 transformed it. The British Army now regards it as the most reliable 5.56mm rifle out there, and is very happy with it.[/quote]

But its reputation is still somewhat tarnished as one of the worst weapons as its innards are “copied” on the .5.56mm Sterling SAR-87(the advanced AR-18) which was a great weapon, now up there with the EM-2. The SAR-87 was also modular as there was a 9mm SMG conversion kit for it.


#15

[quote=“Cutaway”]
But its reputation is still somewhat tarnished as one of the worst weapons as its innards are “copied” on the .5.56mm Sterling SAR-87(the advanced AR-18) which was a great weapon, [/quote]
I don’t quite see the logic: its reputation is tarnished because it used the mechanism of a great weapon? Just imagine what it would be like if it used the mechanism of a bad one…

Incidentally, there have been very few innovations in automatic weapon design over the past century. All designers have borrowed elements from previous designs. What matters is the detail; how successfully the design ideas are implemented in a particular gun.


#16

I was trying to say it was poorly copied on the SAR-87 components. Its just some article claims that some Royal Ordnance engineers visited Sterling Armaments to get some ideas for the SA80 rifle at the time.


#17

Frank Waters began work on what became the SAR-80 before Sterling acquired a license to produce the AR-18. Work on Waters’ rifle was then abandoned. When the folks from RSAF-Enfield were trying to ferret out production secrets from Sterling, it was for the AR-18 itself, not the SAR. Development of Waters’ design resumed at behest of Singapore, and this ultimately became the CIS SAR-80. There is little information available on the later Sterling SAR-87. The only pictures of it have been of an artist’s depiction. The book “The Guns of Dagenham” has a picture of Frank Waters from the mid-'80s firing what is reputed to be a new 5.56mm design. However, while there is coverage of other Sterling prototype firearms, the SAR-87 is never mentioned.


#18

Actually, the very first prototype of the Enfield weapon system, then in 4.85mm, was made by chopping up an AR-18 that had been captured on the streets of Northern Ireland. I know that because I played with it at RSAF in about 1975.

I agree that a bad reputation follows it, but the A2 version is actually now quite a good rifle as Tony W says. The squad weapon though still suffers from split groups.

Regards
TonyE


#19

Getting back to the topic of this thread, the fact that Russia and other large countries are producing and distributing weapons of various popular calibers is no surprise, but I found this listing a little interesting: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=116807983 I didn’t know they actually made SS-109 type ammo for export? Or maybe that stuff isn’t Russian as the seller claims? I have never seen that box before


#20

According to the lot number and the box style, it is NOT Russian, but rather from Bosnia-Herzogovina, manufactured by Igman, Konjic.