Russian 4.5 x 39 MM UNDERWATER CARTRIDGE


#1

Does anyone have one of these? I found this unsual design and concept in Jane’s. The gun must be pretty wild also?


#2

Definitely an oddball system; here are a couple of pictures from Bolotin’s “History of Soviet Small Arms”, showing the SPP pistol and the APS rifle. The pistol uses “moonclips” of four rounds clipped together, while the rifle feeds from a bizarre magazine with an extension for the darts.



#3

These come in a rimless and rimmed version for different guns. I have both and will put up photos later unless someone beats me to it. They are not rare BUT are expensive.


#4

Pretty amazing! Awesome you had pictures of the guns and ammo. Thanks allot. I wonder how far they are lethal?


#5

4.5x40R for the SPP-1 and SPP-1M pistol
world.guns.ru/handguns/hg140-e.htm
5.66x39 for the APS rifle (same cartridge case as the 5.45x39)
world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm

I think the 5.66x39 “MPST” tracer cartridge may be considered to be rare (and will be even more expensive). The drill rounds are also not that much around.

Interesting would be the new Russian under water cartridge for the ASM-DT amphibious rifle in 5.45x39 with rifled barrel. It fires in air the standard 5.45x39 from an AK-74 magazine and under water the new arrow type cartridge from the magazine we know from the APS in 5.66mm (which has a smooth bore).

Even more interesting would be the Chinese counterpart which is different in terms of constructive details and also the cartridge.
Tiengulden may help us here since searching the internet with my limited Chinese (well, not existing Chinese) is rather difficult.


#6

The tables in Bolotin’s book say that the “effective range” depends on the depth at which they are used; at a depth of 5 metres, it shows an “effective range” of up to 17 metres, but by the time you get down to 20 metres, that range has dropped to only 11 metres. Even though the rifle has a much higher velocity than the pistol (365 metres per second, versus 250 mps), the “effective range” drops off even faster, from 30 metres at a depth of 5 metres, to only 10 metres at a depth of 40 metres.


#7

Fantastic info and links! I like the 4 barrel system of the pistol. 17 meters at a 5 meter depth is better then I would have thought. I was amazed when I saw the round pictured in Jane’s. Happy you guys have heard of it and have gobs of info on it. So James Bond’ish.


#8

Then you may also like the German one:
securityarms.com/20010315/ga … 00/940.htm

Just a note to the text there which contains a lot of BS:

  • No fins on the under water projectile (special shape)
  • No fuel inside the projectile
  • There is also a round for shooting on land (spin stabilized)
  • The gun is not being sent back for reloading, the barrel pack is expendable and comes loaded

[color=red]EDIT: found this also:[/color]
hkpro.com/peleven.htm


#9

Here is producer site: kspz.ru/production/cartridges/sluzh/sluzh7/


#10

AAI DEVELOPED AND PATENTED THIS TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY MANY YEARS AGO. I sold my specimens to Woodin lab and do not have still photos to put up. I do have them on tape but have not figured out how to easily transfer to still yet. Maybe someone else has the AAI rounds to post.


#11

The German underwater gun and links are fantastic! I love the photos of the divers practicing. You can tell those are old pictures from the design of the divers masks. It seems Laura Croft from Tomb Raider also likes it :-). I find it amazing is is accurate at 50 feet and uses rocket fuel.


#12

Please read what I wrote above, there is no fuel inside the projectile and certainly nothing rocket like.
Unfortunately there is a lot of uneducated speculation on the P11.

BTW:
The Russian experimentals for the 4.5mm SPP-1 were in 7.62 and there they used solid rocket propellant inside the projectile.


#13

Go fishing :-)

Note the fired cases and magazine


#14

Fantastic. is this a Chinese frogman ?


#15

3 underwater Rusian cartridges
SPP-1 underwater pistol (Russia)and dummy round
APS underwater assault rifle (Russia)
cartridges from own collection
regards
gyrojet


#16

Nice-thank you.


#17

Those are awesome, GYROJET! I really like the one on the right. The underwater pics in action are just incredible. It is funny, because when I 1st saw the photo of this round in Jane’s, I thought to myself, “I’m going to take a picture and really stump the guys in the forum”. Jokes on me because you guys kick butt and not only new what it was, had photos and info as well as actual specimens. Really fantastic! I thought it was the craziest bullets and concept ever.


#18

I fear there is even weirder stuff around.


#19

I bet you have seen some of the weirdest. I was amazed when I saw that pic in Jane’s. Not only is the bullet and extra long projectile wild, but its intended under water function is as well.


#20

Can anyone confirm if this one is a fake?
“Bullet” is non magnetic, rather light, seems like aluminum. Commercial headstamp…
It came from the US between 5 and 12 years ago. Any info on this one?