Russian 7.62 Nagant pistol ammo


#1

I just had a question on whether Russian 7.62 Nagant ammo was ever loaded with with an iron core bullet. There is a Russian book (actually published in the Ukraine) that has a drawing of a Nagant pistol load with an iron core bullet and a 1988 headstamp. I have checked with a couple of collections and neither had a Nagant load with an iron core, as far as they knew.

First, is there anyone on the Forum that has a 7.62 Nagant revolver cartridge with an iron (or steel) core? If so, what is the weight of the loaded round? If you have a photo of the sectioned bullet, please post it, or send it to me via email and I’ll post it.

Second, If you have Russian Nagant rounds in your collection, please weigh them and either post the weights or send them to me on an email and I will consolidate the information. An iron core Nagant cartridge should be identifiably by the weight-I suspect.

Finally, some of you may already have all these answers. If so please share them.

Thanks for the help.

Lew


#2

Lew, why do you think an iron-cored bullet would weigh less than a lead-core example? Was the load for a specific purpose? If it was a cost-saving measure, they would just lengthen the projectile to maintain the spec weight, as was the case with the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge. Steel jackets with lead cores might also confuse the issue.


#3

Jon, I was hoping there would be a weight difference, like is usually the case in 9mm Para, which would make it easy to distinguish the steel from lead core ammo. If they are the same weight then they could only be identified by X-Ray or disassembly! Maybe balance point would tell you but that is getting kinda hard to do.

Cheers,

Lew


#4

Might be different, I just don’t know. Pull a bullet on a standard, common example and see if it is different from the drawing you mentioned.


#5

According to Russian sources during the war Nagant cartridges were loaded with Tokarev steel core projectiles.

I have never seen such one.

Not to forget that Nagant cartridges were often reloaded in Russia by people not having legal access to original ammo, using Tokarev components.

The 1988 sounds strange though.


#6

This question came from an importer who is thinking about bringing in a quantity of 7.62 Nagant revolver ammo, but wants to make sure it isn’t hard core.

It would be really useful of we could get the weights of some Russian rounds from various dates.

The only Nagant round I have is from a box of ammo the Chinese Olympic team brought over for the Atlanta Olympics. I know it is soft core because it has a plain lead bullet. It is 174gr or 11.27g. The headstamp is in 821 86 and the maker is listed as

National Liao Yuan Machinery Works, Chongqing, China.

This is Chinese. How about some data on Russian 7.62 Nagant Revolver cartridges?

Cheers,

Lew


#7

Lew–If this guy is going to import them commercially, he obviously has access to a large quantity. Also, he must have a contact in Russia to act as a middle man. Why not just ask the middle man to open a box and cut a bullet in half. It doesn’t need to be a fancy job like when we collectors section a round. Just use any tool to slice the bullet in half lengthwise. It would then be clear if the core is steel or lead or just the bullet jacket is GMCS.


#8

Lew,

Do you think that it is possible that the factory 821 is the same as 81? I am not pulling your chain. It would identify one of the two chinese factories that seem to have been the only ones to make the 9 x 18mm Makarov round. I am working on the book right now, although it will be a couple of months, at least, before I start the ammo section.

I know that there are way more Chinese Arsenal numbers than there are arsenals, according to one of the guys from Keng’s that had visited China several times on gun and ammo business, and seemed in the know. I meet him at a shot show years ago, when they were hot and heavy with the AK and other Chinese goods. I also have heard that the reason for so many numbers is that to confuse folks, the Chinese play with the arsenal numbers, sticcking numbers in the middle or at either end, or probably both in the case of the few 4-digt numbers.

Any solid information on this from you or your friend Bin?

I looked in my dupes by the way, and no longer had a single 7.62 Nagant. I was perfectly willing to rip one aprt for you if I had had one.

John


#9

[quote=“Lew”]I just had a question on whether Russian 7.62 Nagant ammo was ever loaded with with an iron core bullet. There is a Russian book (actually published in the Ukraine) that has a drawing of a Nagant pistol load with an iron core bullet and a 1988 headstamp. I have checked with a couple of collections and neither had a Nagant load with an iron core, as far as they knew.

First, is there anyone on the Forum that has a 7.62 Nagant revolver cartridge with an iron (or steel) core? If so, what is the weight of the loaded round? If you have a photo of the sectioned bullet, please post it, or send it to me via email and I’ll post it.

Second, If you have Russian Nagant rounds in your collection, please weigh them and either post the weights or send them to me on an email and I will consolidate the information. An iron core Nagant cartridge should be identifiably by the weight-I suspect.

Finally, some of you may already have all these answers. If so please share them.

Thanks for the help.

Lew[/quote]

Lew!

Nagant cartridges with TT round nosed bullet with steel core was really produced in USSR in the middle of 1980-th. This model didn’t became very common because of high barrel wearing and low accuracy.

The weight for standard cartridges with lead core bullet are:
Ball - 6,70-7,00 grams
Cartridge - 11,60-12,80 grams

The weights of cartridges with steal core bullet are:
Ball - 5,32-5,58 grams
Cartridge - 10,75-11,00 grams

The cartridges with TT bullet could be easily identified by round nosed bullet.


#10

Treshkin, Thanks, that is exactly the information I needed. I’ve been told seperately that these were Tokarev bullets loaded in the 86-87 time frame.

I have also received data on the loads as follows:

Lead core (flat tip):
total weight of round: 11.6 - 12.8gm
bullet weight: 6.7 - 7.0gm
lenght of bullet: 16.26 - 16.51mm

Steel core (round nose):
total weight of round: 10.75 - 11.0gm
bullet weight: 5.32 - 5.58gm
lenght of bullet: 16.3 - 16.5mm

The easy identification is the difference in weight and the RN bullet in the steel core ammunition.

Reportedly These steel core loads were made for the Russian guard agency “VOKhR”. The projectiles were for convenience simple Torakev bullets since new production of Nagant bullets would have been more expensive.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

Lew - any information on the Chinese Arsenal number I asked you about in this thread? Refers to the one on your Chinese Nagant headstamps, although I want to know if your identification of that arsenal also applies to “Arsenal 81” the number found on some Makarov rounds?


#12

John, It sounds like you could make a reasonable case that 821 may be 81 Arsenal, but I have no data except for the box of 7.62 Nagant that the Chinese team gave David Keng when they were over for the Olympics. David and one of his two sons, Shane as I remember, have told me that the Chinese arsenals added numbers as you say, but neither could remember what was who at the time. I think that you make a good case though. When I see David next I will ask him.

Cheers,

lew


#13

thanks. Add Arsenal “71” to the list to ask him about.