RWS & Geco 9mm Parabellum boxes


#1

Nice to post again, there are two boxes of 9mm Parabellum ammo made by Geco and RWS but I do not know the age of them. Few years ago, before I started my collection, I shot a couple of boxes from my Jericho 941 (Baby Eagle) and I found it very accurate. As this pistol is extremely capricious with the weight of the bullets and does not like bullets over 115 grs.I guess it could be 100grs., as original 9mm Parabellum, but I want you to confirme me this point and to date it.

I cannot find any translation to "


#2

The meaning is “oil proof” – meant to insure the buyer that the ammunition has been sealed against the incursion of oil into the ammunition. If you look closely, you will see the lacquer sealing around both the primer annulus and case mouth. Oil can destroy primers and well-sealed ammunition should last longer in the elements – many militaries around the world take this possibility very seriously and specify some method of “sealing” for military contract rounds.
My own experience with Geco brand ammunition has been positive, but there is no way I can give you a projectile weight without weighing the bullet (or seeing the gram weight (if such exists) on the end flaps, perhaps?

Nice to see old boxes, thanks for sharing.

Mark


#3

44RM: the bullets in the cartridges shown should be of 8 g (124 gr.) weight. Since the boxes both mention the P.08 (Luger) they are of pre-1946 manufacture, probably 1935-40 or thereabouts. Some German commercial-style headstamps were used into the war years, but I can’t speak exactly for the 9m/m Parabellum. JG


#4

44RM - nice boxes! I’ve collected 9mm para boxes for 35 years and only have a poor specimen of the Geco, and never have found one of the RWS, although I have seen them.

However, where did you get the information, which you allude to, that the original bullet wieight of 9mm Parabellum was 100 grains? I have a 9mm cartridge with 8 gram (124 grain) tuncated FMJ bullet, with headstamp * D.M. * K. These are pretty-well acknowledged to be the first production-run 9mm para rounds, predating the “K DWM K 480C” headstamp. They date from approximately 1902. The original bullet weight was 124 grains, and that weight, or 115 grain, accounted for much of the world-wide production of this caliber until about the 1960’s, when expecially in the U.S., they started playing with bullet weights from as low as 85-90 grains to as high as 147 grain in relatively normal loads, and higher weights for silencers. For specialized Silencer work, The British and Germans, and perhaps others loaded bullets heavier than 124 grain earlier than that, but again, for regular production, 115 and 124 grain were the norm.

During WWII, to save strategic materials, iron cores and singered-iron bullets were used, and these resulted in bullet weights lower than 115 grains - around the 100 grain mark - but this was not the norm except in the WWII years, and their use was probably much more wide spread in Machine Pistols than in either the P-08 or the P-38 Pistols, although certainly they would have been used in those weapons also if it was all that was available.


#5

I have a different box in my collection.

regards
gyrojet


#6

Very nice box gyrojet!, is yours “SINOXID” marked too? When does sinoxid compound start to be used?

John, maybe I am wrong, you are right that original bullet was TC, from the original TC 7,65 Para, and I just have one of this in my collection with no heastamp and I won


#7

Yes
" SINOXID"


#8

44RM - Your English is fine!

The cartridges you weighed were undoubtedly of the “mit Eisenkern” (Iron core) and/or “Sintereisen” (sintered-iron) types, which are lighter than the previously normal lead-core bullets, which in German ammunition, were normally 8 grams, although they also made ammunition in 7.5 grams. The lighter iron-core bullets only achieved wide use during the period of about 1943-1945, although they were made earlier, and occasionally can be found in cases dated in the late 1930s, although there is some question as to whether they were really loaded that early, at least in my mind. The Sintered Iron bullets are late war, with the some of the earliest lots found in 1943 in Steel Helmet Test Loads (Stahlhelmabnahme Patronen), and more normally found in 1944 and 1945 dated cases.

The Sinoxid (RWS/Geco name for a non-corrosive primer) was developed at R.W.S. (Rheinisch-Westf


#9

In this item “Sintereisen” has been named. Does anybody know if Italians had also Sintereisen projectiles during WWII?
I have a 9 mm cartridge, headstamp:
12 o’clock: G.F.L.9.M38
6 o’clock: 1942
lightgreen primer, case copper, bullet darkgrey (magnetic) iron, like the German Sintereisen bullets…


#10

Hi Jaco
welcom on board !!!

best regards
gyrojet


#11

Jaco,
take a look here

worldwar.it/index.php?option … &Itemid=84


#12

Since we’re showing GeCo boxes here,

This is a box of GeCo 9mm para that was specially loaded on request.


#13

Some interesting boxes from Dynamit A.-G. (Geco and RWS) for the 9mm Para cartridges. The top two boxes are from about the 1940/1941 period. The top left box was empty, but is likely commercial; the top right had standard lead-core ball rounds headstamped "dnf * 6 41, and with the P-08 designation, is probably ammo for the Police or para-military units of the German forces. Neither box has a maker’s name on it, but although faded, were the typical bluish-color Geco boxes The 2nd row left is a commercial box from the early post-WWII period, and was received empty. The box next to it is from the same period, but is military (note the procurement number), and had ball rounds of the headstamp “5 Geco 7 9mm” in the box. The third row left is commercial and has chromed, fluted dummies headstamped “Geco 9mm” in it. The third row right box is for silencer loads, with headstamp “(+) Geco 14-65” and with the primer completely covered with a dark reddish-purple seal, darker in color than the bright red seal used by Geco at that time. The fourth row left is a box for silencer ammunition, with 10 gram CNCS bullet, headstamped “Geco 9mm Para.” The box to its right probably had the same ammo, but was received empty. The bottom row left had the same ammo as the box above it - “Geco 9mm Para” headstamp with 10 gram CNCS FMJ RN bullet. The bottom right box has a note in it showing that it contained rounds that had an orange tip and green PA, with headstamp “Geco 9mm Luger.”

A good collection of these Geco/RWS boxes probably could run to a hundred or so. I have a number more, but have seen dozens that I don’t have, including the one last posted on this thread.

John Moss Collection


#14

[quote=“Pivi”]Jaco,
take a look here
worldwar.it/index.php?option … &Itemid=84[/quote]

Thanks Pivi,
As fas as I can see (Italian is not my strongest language) the answer is no? Only bullet I see there and looking the same is “Ball in empty steel from manipulation” but ‘my’ cartridge has a live primer (green lacquered)


#15

[quote=“gyrojet”]Hi Jaco
welcom on board !!!

best regards
gyrojet[/quote]

Thanx Gyrojet (-:


#16

[quote=“Jaco”][quote=“Pivi”]Jaco,
take a look here
worldwar.it/index.php?option … &Itemid=84[/quote]

Thanks Pivi,
As fas as I can see (Italian is not my strongest language) the answer is no? Only bullet I see there and looking the same is “Ball in empty steel from manipulation” but ‘my’ cartridge has a live primer (green lacquered)[/quote]

Jaco,
I don’t know,because I don’t collect any 9 mm para cartridge.
However the list can be incomplete,let me ask some italian friends and then I will give you an answer


#17

Jaco,
I posted the question about your round on the worldwar.it forum.
When someone will reply I will let you know the answer


#18

Jaco - the grey Italian 9mm bullets are not sintered iron. They are mild-steel jacketed bullets with a lead core. The core is quite evident on pulled bullets at the open base and is concave at the base.

I have seen these bullets ranging in “look” from frosty grey to almost silver with a good polish. Some look to have a bonderized finish to the jacket, while others look like they are tinned. I am not sure exactly what the finish is, but the bullet is not of one-piece sintered iron construction.


#19

Jaco, As indicated on the websitge that Pivi pointed out, The 1942 GFL load you have will be a lead core. The bullet jacket on many of these is steel with a finish that frequently looks like a SE bullet.

The Italians did produce loads with both SE and mE bullets of German manufacture. I have PV C-43 headstamps with both mE & SE bullets with a distinctive white tip, and also a 9M38F 1944 load with an mE bullet, also with a white tip. All three rounds came to me in the 1960s from a very well known (then) collector in Italy. They were reported have white tips to identify the iron core or iron bullets.

Also from many years ago is a dou headstamped load from 1944 which is ordinary German occupation from PS but with a White tip on the mE bullet. This round also came to me many years ago and reportedly was a post WWII Italian repack. Cheers, Lew


#20

I have to say that I cannot understand the existence of Capua 1943-headstamped ammunition with a German SE bullet in it. Capua is just a little North East of Naples and was in allied hands by November of 1943, as I recall from my history books. I know that the Germans pulled out of Naples in early October 1943. That is why there is no further Capua headstamp on 9mm after 1943, until after WWII. The Germans were barely loading the SE bullet themselves in 1943. I think only faa (DWM), dnf and dnh loaded them in that year, although since I don’t collect lots and dates, I could be wrong. The latter two were both Dynamit A.-G. factories, R.W.S. and Geco, respectively (N